I built a 458 win Mag on a Mauser 98 with Douglass blank that I turned to a number 5 taper. I want to do a lot of shooting with it before I go kill something. ;-)
I want to use cast lead bullets. How fast can I load them up with out the lead causing trouble?

Also, My reloading manual says I can use bullets that are pulse zero and -.008. 458 is called for. I have a 454 ball mold, OK? Also I have access to 200 grain 451 solid copper hollow points. What is the ups and downs of going .007 smaller?

After I break it in and get back on target, [it's been 30 years sense I did any shooting] What is the things to think about with using light [200 grain] copper hollow points?
This has a 1 in 16 twist.

Not sure what speeds are possible, but I have driven 525gr GC cast bullets to 1950fps in my .458WM with any leading. Accuracy was fully as good as jacketed.

All the recoil you may want.

When your reloading manual said to use bullets sized +0 to -.008, it was only talking about jacketed bullets. Those dimensions won't work for cast bullets. For cast bullets the proper dimensions are more like +.001 to +.003, maybe larger in some circumstances. Because of the 45/70, here are a lot of commercial cast bullets that will work in your .458 .

How fast you can push them depends on a lot of factors but the primary rule is that gascheck bullets can be driven faster than plainbase, all else being equal.

Variables are things like bore finish, bullet hardness, bullet diameter, lube, gas check,bullet design. A 454 isn't going to be accurate . .001-.002 greater than bore is needed for accuracy .[I have an insert to fire 45acp in my 45-70, it has poor accuracy]

Ron, cast bullet performance can get complicated. It should be possible to pretty much match factory levels, but that's no place for someone who has not done any shooting for 30 years and who is new to cast bullets to start.

I'll confidently predict that Lee 459-405-HB as cast and lubed with Liquid Alox at about 1300 fps will give you an accurate plinking and familiarization load. Lyman shows 18 grains of Unique and 25 grains of 2400. That mould is only about $20 and you can cast from wheelweights and let them air cool.

Heavy loads are going to take a gas checked bullet and a harder alloy. I would strongly suggest that you get some experience with cast before you tackle that.

Buddy and I experimented with cast bullets in 8mm Mauser...Got a recipe from a loading manual that gave 2100-2200 fps, ordered gas checked 170 grn bullets...

Long story short, my shotgun patterned better than these things (seriously) We had trouble hitting a 24" backer board at 25 yrds. Bullets were keyholing, etc. Figured that they were just too soft to engage rifling at those speeds...Reading up on this board and others, you need pretty hard cast bullets to reach those speeds... 1700-1800 fps more typical of cast loads.

Dfaugh, 8mm barrel diameters are all over the place. They can run anywhere from .318 to .329. Cast bullets just ain't gonna work if they are smaller than the actual bore diameter. If you got .323 bullets and the actual bore was .325 or bigger, no hardness would make up for that.

We can be pretty sure that Ron's new Douglas barrel is close enough to specs for a .459 or .460 bullet to work. Hardness might become an issue at high pressures, but bullet diameter should not be.

With the larger diameter, I will bet that the alloy won't need to be all that hard. Water quenched WW's will be plenty, if not too much. As far as velocity with cast in that bore size, your shoulder will give out, before accuracy fails.
I push some of my .30 bores up to around 2400 fps before the hardness began to give up, using straight water quenched bullets , and have ran my .223 up to 2690 fps, quenched ww's, with no leading problems.

How fast you can push a cast bullet before it leads is a complex question, as it is related to the size of the bullet, the size of the bore, the barrel twist, the pressure of the load, and the hardness of the bullet.

With a hardcast gas checked bullet, you'll never be able to push a 500 gr bullet fast enough to lead in a 1-16 twist 458 win mag, provided it is properly sized for the bore. I'd keep the max velocity for the lighter bullets to no more than 2200 fps, and your shoulder will thank you

I have a TC Encore 375 GNR 14" Bll,which is a 45-70 necked down to 375.I have shot 245gr LFNGC to 2400 with no leading,these bullets were BHN 24-28 water quenched/WW using FWFL as bullet lube.Accuracy was only 4" though at 50 yds.

Sean

In the larger bore diameters, the alloy becomes less important than in smaller calibers.

I've driven PURE LEAD 370-grain bullets at over 2000 fps from my .416 Rigby with no leading and fairly-decent accuracy. This was done as a starting point for determining a hunting load for this rifle. Some powder charges were well over 100 grains.

The same bullet in water-dropped wheelweight alloy handles heavy loads at 2600-plus fps very nicely, if one can handle the recoil. Your .458 should do fine with air-cooled WW alloy at 2100 or so. Size the bullets at .459 or .460, use good lube, and have fun. Use the same powders that are recommended for jacketed loads, if you're looking to duplicate factory-level loads.

A nice .458 can be a wonderful cast-bullet vehicle.

I have pushed .30 cal cast bullets to about 2500 FPS, using "Drop Out" spray as the lube, no leading that I could see. I stand the bullets up on end and spray them and let them dry. 'Drop out' is a mold release agent sold by Midway, it makes a good bullet lube!

I shoot a 500gn gas checked bullet in my 470 NE. They are water dropped wheel weights and lubed with Javalina. I shoot them at 2150fps and don't have any problems at all.

I'm thinking that the pistol bullets(.451 or .452") will not work well at all. You can find 300 and 350gn jacketed .458" bullets. I think the lightest .458 mold I've seen is around 340gns.

You could try lighter plain based bullets up to around 1500fps or so for a plinker and the full velocity 500gn for a cheaper practice load instead of factory or 500gn jacketed stuff.

I tried this and got a 404 error so I hope this is not a dubble post.
Well thanks for the input. It has been 30 years but it is all coming back now. I remember when the LEE Loader came out and every one said Lee who? Things have come a long way. I am looking for around 1000 to 1200 FPS for plinking and rabbits and target to 100 yards but will most likely need to push it on up at 199 yards cause these things drop like a rock.

We run through around 30 of these barrels a year, from 223 on up and 2 to 4 50s a year as well. This is the first one I have done for me in a LONG time, I told the boss man I wanted to neck down a 338 ultra mag to 17 and he said I should go get my head checked. Party pooper!

Any way, Thanks for the size input, DUH! 7 under for jacketed is ok but you need to smash the lead in tight. Can LEE make me a 460 mold with gas check and hollow point? I guess I will email them and see.

I am looking at all this so the wife and I can go have some fun. She is a 5 footer so 700 grains at 1400 FPS is NOT fun! I can load them down to a fun point for her so she will not kill me! It would be a real bummer to be shot with your own gun!

I like cast! It is much more fun to roll your own and a LOT cheaper. Pulse you can play with things, you can't with boxed amo. For game, with this much mass flying along at 2000 FPS or so, what is the best for deer, elk, lion and bear? There always tromping through my place so I guess it is my turn to eat one. So do I "need" hollow point? Or is just the womp of 500 grains going to drop em ok?

I shot three deer this year with a .458WM down-loaded with 500gr cast bullets. Vel. was about 1450fps. The bullet metal was linotype.

As would be expected, I got complete penetration and did not recover any bullets. One shot when end-to-end and buried itself so deep in the ground that I was unable to dig it up.

Linotype is too hard for this application. It's not needed for the velocity, and it performs on game like a solid. There is zero expansion.

For next season, I have two loads worked up. One is a 375gr FPGC at about 2000fps. This is a little softer metal. Combined with the higher velocity, it will expand nicely.

I also have some of the 500gr bullet cast with pure lead noses. In water jugs, these realy expand even at fairly low velocity (1450fps).

FWIW

For low speed a plain based bullet will do just fine. You don't need a gas check until you get into the higher velocities.
Lee will do custom molds, but they want $100 to set up for it, then full price for each mold you get.
If you buy 25 molds, then they waive the setup fee. If you buy 100 molds, then they will give you the dealer price.
We have custom runs done every so often and usually get 25-50+ people to go in on it.
I like the 6 cavity Lee molds as they are built much better than the others. The 1 and 2 cav molds can put out a good bullet, but they can be a pain to cast with.
I don't think you will need a hollow point. The bullet is already starting out at 45 cal!
One thing that some people have tried is to pour a soft point.
Get 2 pots of lead, one with pure soft lead, the other with WW or similar. Pour just enough to fill the nose with the soft stuff, then finish filling it up with the hard stuff for a solid shank.

If you want something different that isn't on the market, try this place.
http://www.mountainmolds.com
You can design you own with his online design program and he bores them on his CNC lathe.
The price is very reasonable and the molds are top quality. That's where I got my 500gn .475 mold. He doesn't do hollow points though.
He used to do a 2 cavity mold that had a complete cavity and the other was just for the nose. then you could pour a bunch of soft noses. Put the noses in the other cavity and fill up with a harder base. That way all the bullets are the same.
I don't know how light of a bullet will shoot in the 458, but maybe a 200gn might be doable for plinking?

Another thing to possibly try is a process called Beagleing(made by the poster Beagle)
You get some Aluminum ducting tape and cut small strips of it. You put the strips on the inside edges of the mold, front and back. This will shim the mold open a controlled amount to make a larger bullet. You could do this with a .451 pistol mold to get fatter bullets for the rifle. You can open up a few though with out any accuracy problems. It's cheap and easy to do and undo. The lee 1 cav molds are cheap so if it doesn't work, you aren't out much.

I think that I have a Lyman 4 cav mold in the 452460 230gn round nose that casts close to .458. I'll pull it out, cast a few and check it if your interested.
my email is idahobronco@aol.com

quote:

452460 230gn

What I am thinking right now is get something like LAR45s 452460 230gn or what ever. Start with a 1/2 load and shoot a 5 shot grope at 100Y and see. Add a few grains and do it again.

Keep records and keep going. I can note recoil, grope and drop and do some water recovery to check the round. When I get to the point where leading starts, where the lube failed, or where the round explodes after it leaves the barrel stop and Back down a few grains.

I should know every thing there is to know about that round under all loads and load what I need for the tack at hand. Killing Kodiak or paper, I will know what to load and I will know the absolute limit of that cast round. I have all these reloading toys to roll my own and a Crono to check the speed, why not play with them?

Then if the wife wants to plink, I can load her some. If I go to Alaska for the BIG brown one, I can load for that and any thing in between.

Is that not why we have all these toys, to play with them?