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| One of Us |
Let's have a consensus of how many cast shooters out there believe that the powder gases actually melt the base end of a cast bullet. | ||
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| One of Us |
I guess you will have to count me as a NON BELIEVER  | |||
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| One of Us |
I believe in the tooth fairy, Easter Bunny and Santa Claus but I don't believe you are ever going to melt a lead bullet firing it in a gun. | |||
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| One of Us |
I can't explain it, but I have a recovered pure lead conical from a muzzleloader that has significant concave indentions in the base of the bullet. No way to post pictures, but I have only one explanation: the Hodgdon T7 actually burned the indentations into the bullet. The entire bullet did not melt, but I have to believe the T7 flame temperature was hot enough to cause the imperfections. I am ready to entertain any other explanation... | |||
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| One of Us |
I believe what you are seeing is the gas pressure from the powder pushing the bottom in concave because this pressure does put most the pressure into a peak in the center of the base. I've seen it in all rifles that I have fired cast in. The cast bullet is only in the barrel milliseconds and that isn't enough time to melt them. If you see what you think is melting,you are seeing gas cutting. Ray is right about the time period involved and the old run your finger through a candle flame fast, then run it through slower and see what you feel. Also because the bullets sides are trying to grip the sides of the bore/groove, it's easier for the gas to concave the base by pushing the center in which is easier. | |||
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| One of Us |
Those concave indents are being left by triple seven granuals being pushed against the ball by pressure. 777 burns fast but not all at once and grains are pressed hard against the ball, especially until it gets moving. | |||
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| One of Us |
I am not so sure that is the answer... the indention(s) I am talking about are pretty good sized. One of them is almostas big as the end of my little finger and roughly 1/4" deep! | |||
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One of Us |
I suggest you get a little hand torch and melt a few of your bullets, starting at the flat bottom of the bullet base. Quite often you may find significant little "voids" inside cast bullets. 15,000 or 20,000 psi pressures will sometimes cause those voids to collapse, leaving an unsightly bullet surface. If your test melting finds such voids occuring in your bullets, you need to experiment with your casting procedures (or equipment) until your bullets are void free. Such voids can contribute to slight trajectory differences from shot to shot, more yaw, and other things which degrade benchrest accuracy. Usually, though they do not cause any concern with hunting bullets. Most of my money I spent on whisky and women. The rest I just wasted. | |||
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One of Us |
I do believe that in some circumstances yes. The 400gr plain base bullets my Hoch mould throws for my 404J have never given satisfactory accuracy and on examination of the fired cases, small splashes of lead can be seen on the case neck. I came up with a simple method of using my bullet puller die and collet to hold the cast bullets nose first in a lathe chuck to spin a gas check shoulder on each plain base bullet. Gas checked I now get excellent accuracy. My Mauser has a lot of leade (I suspect setup for the early monometals) which possibly has not helped plain base accuracy. The evidence can be seen of some melting of the bullet base. | |||
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| One of Us |
This too can often be a common occurrence shooting cast bullets and caused by gas cutting, which shooting with gas checks stops. | |||
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| One of Us |
Thanks, AC, but I have been doing this for over 30 years, and when I cast for my frontstuffers, I ladle cast and anything over 0.4 grain is returned to the pot. Please tell me how much weigh variation I can expect to see in a bullet with a void like I described. I certainly think it is greater than half a grain! | |||
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| One of Us |
What conical s are you using? | |||
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| One of Us |
Doubless is this missing lead being deposited in your barrel? That should be quite a bunch of lead, 50-60 grains or more! Shoot with the wind at your BACK  | |||
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| One of Us |
The poor country girl was a moonshiner, but I loved her still. AC | |||
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| One of Us |
Yup, that's AC's old line, I remember it now. | |||
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| One of Us |
Ol Scottie's memory isn't that bad! | |||
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| One of Us |
You done good!! | |||
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| One of Us |
Doubtless, If your conical has lots of deep groove I suspect the gas pressure is cupping the base and as metal can't be compress it has to move else where and getting rid of the grooves by moving the metal there. | |||
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| One of Us |
Now that would make perfect sense, except the grooves in the bullet from the lands in the barrel are quite distinct! I think what happened is that the center of the bullet moved and the edges of the bullet remained somewhat "fixed" due to contact with the rifling, leaving a cupped base. Metal is, after all, pretty elastic at higher pressures, and 15-20k is pretty high pressure. And by the way, the projectile is a Lyman Whitworth, shot out of a .451 White Super 91... | |||
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| One of Us |
Especially so if you're shooting plain lead. In your case then the bullet grew towards the front. | |||
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| One of Us |
Cupped bases of large bore bullets is a common phenomena. The cupping will still occur even with a wad in place to protect the bullets base. Incidentally newspaper wads recovered down range will show no signs of scorching or burning so I really don't think there is any possibility of melting of the bullets base. Gas cutting? Yes. Melting? No. The powder flame temperature is certainly high enough to melt lead but the time of contact with the bullet is far too short to raise it to the melting point. My 2 cents. Jerry Liles | |||
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| One of Us |
Gas cutting? ---yes! Bullet melting? ---aint gonna happen!!! Have a great day! | |||
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| One of Us |
That may well be. I was not questioning your ability, and I could not see your bullets well enough at this distance to judge (guess) the weight displacement of the cavities. You had not previously mentioned your rejection standards for your freshly cast bullets. Nor did you mention the bore diameter of your muzzlestuffer, so there was no way to know if it is a .30 squirrel rifle, or a 2-bore gun for pachydermata. I was merely suggesting that you test for something that we (my shooting buddies and I) found in our early 210 gr. .30-calibre bullets which we used in benchrest shooting competition. With pure lead bullets, pressure often cups them, so perhaps that is it. Again, from here, I can't tell...just suggest the odd thing one might want to check in finding their own answer(s). My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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| One of Us |
I meant no arrogance, and I realize now I didn't give all the information necessary for you folks to properly determine what might be happening. If I offended, it was not intentional. My apologies.  | |||
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| One of Us |
You surely do not need to apologize, I was just trying to make sure YOU weren't offended. There are so many people with so much experience here, that it usually produces better (more relevant) responses if you give as much pertinent detail as possible. Best wishes to you..... My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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| One of Us |
If it won't set a cloth patch on fire I don't believe it will melt lead. | |||
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| One of Us |
There ya go, trying to ruin a good myth with some sort of scientific fact  Larry Gibson | |||
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| One of Us |
Hey Larry, where in the hell have you been lately. Does the better half have you traveling around? | |||
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| One of Us |
Maybe the terminology is a little cloudy. I've done a lot of gas cutting of steel in my day and the steel blown from the cut is sure as hell melted. When we talk of lead melting at the bullet base, if inferring it melts and slumps, sure I accept not likely, does a jet of hot gas melt the lead from the bullet base, sure as hell it does, it does not solder itself to the neck of my 404 cases by staying in its solid form. | |||
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| One of Us |
I feel the gas cuts it just from the pressure. Take a look how water jets at very high pressure cut steel today. They sure as hell aren't melting that steel. | |||
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| One of Us |
Next time you gas-cut steel only keep the flame on the cut-line for the same amount of time (relativly speaking) a cast bullet is in the barrel and see how much melts! You will, of course, have to adjust your time to compensate for the difference in "hardness"(?) between lead and steel---use a computer(?) to figure the time maybe? At the end of the day we will each believe what we will! Have a great day. | |||
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| One of Us |
The gas can cut the side of the bullet if/when it blows by the bullet when the bullet is too small. The base does not melt. If you need proof go dig up a couple hundred bullets. | |||
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| One of Us |
I agree with SR4759. There may be rare instances when some melting occurs, but danged few. Gas cutting in steel, lead, or other metals is very akin to water cutting into a hillside...it is erosion, not melting. The gas erodes the bullet surface, just like water erodes ground surface. Water does not generally melt the hillside...it may dissolve it, or abrade it away, or both, but it doesn't melt it. In lead bullets, high speed gas flow most generally abrades the metal away. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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| One of Us |
In all your examples and those of others posting, the material that is being cut or eroded has to have its state changed from solid to liquid (or soft enough to move) for the process of cutting or eroding to take place. Of course a hillside is not melted by water erosion but it is liquified or enough is liquified to also carry away solids with it. Same has to happen with gas cutting of cast lead bullets. Some of the lead has to be liquified, melted or what ever you wish to call it for that previous solid state material to be carved away and deposited on case necks or in barrel throats, as opposed to the mechanical scraping of lead onto the barrel during passage of the bullet (mostly prevented by lubing). Likewise gas checks of material that is harder than lead and not affected by heat or hot gases prevents gas cutting. | |||
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| One of Us |
You move material around when swaging bullets. Heck for that matter you move material around when sizing bullets too. Nope, it doesn't become a liquid in my opinion. | |||
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| new member |
Waterjet cutting uses water and an abrasive like garnet, at high pressure, to cut through hard materials. While the combustion of powder in a cartridge produces alot of heat, it is the pressure and burnt powder residue that abraid a soft lead boolit. Fine particals of lead are blown out and ironed into the bore. If you give that much force an easy path, it will take it. | |||
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| One of Us |
I've seen base cutting of the bullets many times, but that was caused by the pressure exceeding the strength of the alloy. That is what they make Gas Checks for. Cheers, John Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt | |||
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| One of Us |
The cutting can also be caused by a flaw in the base, such as from a poorly cast bullet. That gives the gas a good place to start cutting through. | |||
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| One of Us |
You're absolutely correct with what you said, but it also cuts without an abrasive too: A water jet cutter, also known as a waterjet,[1] is a tool capable of slicing into metal or other materials (such as granite) using a jet of water at high velocity and pressure, or a mixture of water and an abrasive substance. The process is essentially the same as water erosion found in nature. | |||
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| One of Us |
Since the question posed by the original poster was about MELTING bullets, it matters a great deal what process causes the lead to be cut away during gas cutting. The lead is abraded away by the extremely rapid flow of gas, much like a hillside is eroded away by fast flowing water. Gas molecules themselves are abrasive, as they are not round and smooth like ball bearings. Even if they were round and smooth, enough of them hitting a surface at high velocity would still create erosion. None the less, it is NOT melting from high temps that does the trick. So "whatever you wish to call it" IS important to answering his question. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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