Thanks guys,

Your input has been more than excellent! Now, I'm all cranked to go whack some pigs with a big meplat! I will start a post again in three weeks and let you know how my cast loads worked.

Geoff

geoff, This has been one of the best posts I have read and I thank all of you. I, too, have found the hard cast, large meplat boolit much more effective on game. After taking a few deer with factory condom bullets and being disappointed in penetration, being afraid of what might happen with a large bone hit or a quartering shot, I switched to the LBT and Lee style boolits, hard cast, for my revolvers and will never go back. They must do something very nasty in the animal because they go down very fast but there is minimal meat damage. Penetration is way out of proportion to the velocity a boolit is launched at and super high velocity is not needed.
As far as stability, I have no trouble keeping all shots on our steel target at 500 yds with my BFR 45-70 revolver and a lot of hits are within 2" of each other. Steel targets from rams to chickens at 200 yds are duck soup. They are MUCH more accurate then I can hold from Creedmore position.
Boolit path is always straight through big game.
I have seen photos of ballistic gelatin shot with condom bullets and LBT's. The LBT's had a larger diameter wound channel and over twice the penetration.
I use the same boolits for .44, .45 and 45-70 with the same results. Try them and you will agree!

A premium cast bullet manufacturer claims that their bullets create a 25% larger wound channel. This, they claim, is due to their unique bullet design that creates a "shock wave" when penetrating. Their bullets are hard cast, so it has strictly to do with shape.

May I have more expert input on this claimed phenomenon, especially from those who hunt with cast bullets?

Thanks in advance,
Geoff

I wanted to add something about alloys. Hard bullets do indeed penetrate but due to their inherent hardness, rarely expand on soft flesh. In some cases, they will break up due to hardness. This can be good and bad....good in that secondary projectiles can cause all sorts of damage, bad in that penetration is limited as the individual pieces lose their kinetic energy.

In my experience, if you are shooting a big bore like .458, try to shoot a soft alloy. Velocity will be limited to 1600 fps or so, BUT these big bullets are damned near unstoppable. I shoot pure lead in my 45-70 over 41.5 grains of Re7. Have very little to no leading. The beauty of a pure lead is it expands quite easily making a horrific wound channel and because it is malleable, it stays in one piece retaining its mass. Because the bullet weighs 400+ grains, it's retained energy even when expanded to .80 caliber+, it continues to punch deeply and even exit on critters like deer. In big bore guns, my advice is to shoot a soft alloy. However, in the 30 and perhaps the .35's, air cooled WW alloy works better. One because it allows higher speeds without leading and because the energy level is lower, it gives extra penetration properties. I once shot a deer from A-Hole to briskit with a 30-30 using a 150 grain cast bullet made from air cooled WW's. The bullet expanded to about .40 caliber. That was a good 3 feet+ of penetration.

Jump, pure lead does work well. I just don't get enough velocity from handguns to get the penetration after they expand. My boolits are hard but not brittle. No sense making boolits that break. The flat nose makes up for lack of much expansion.

Thanks Jumptrap,
I do plan to use your good advice. As indicated in my previous posts, I am a novice at cast bullet hunting. Like many of us, I went from the venerable 30-06 to the hotrods and hypervelocity wildcats, then back to the oldies but goodies.

Now, I'm ready to try the "real Oldies" and seriously start hunting with cast bullet loads. From there, maybe even try muzzleloaders for personal trophy hunting. Metallic cartridges with cast bullets will have to do for my work activity since I'm very much involved in problem animal control. I would get fired for being too slow on the job.

Geoff

heres my take on it. Nothing scientific cause i aint no scientist just experience. Ive shot game with kieths wfns and lfns. Pigs deer and bear after taking quite a few heads of game with cast at handgun velocites heres my conclulsions. I dont see much difference in killing power between any of the bullet designs or even velocites. Ive hit animals in almost the exact same spot with all of them and they all die some quicker then others but nothing that can be nailed down to bullet design. In my opionion the metpalt being more inportant then the caliber theroy is just bunk. A .45 more times then not will anchor an animal better then a .41 and a .475 and .512 will do even better yet. Velocity acutally doesnt do much either. I cant notice the diffence between an animal hit at 1400fps with a cast bullet then hit with the same bullet at 1000fps. As far as accuarcy goes even at short range (under 100 yards) ive found that its usually easier to find an accurate load with kieths first lfns second and wfns a far third sure there are exceptions to this as every gun is its own animal but in years of testing with many different guns its a clear victory for the keiths. Long range accuracy id say its a toss up between the kieths and the lfns with wfns almost being laughable. Here im talking 300+ yards. As far as penetration goes and we done alot of testing id give the lfn a slight edge over the kieths and thats probably just becasuse theres so many different swc designs out there and some arent that good of bullets. Wfns again a far third. As far as tracking straight in penetration test again id go kieth lfn wfn and again as penetration goes velocity isnt the key. Best luck we get with any hard cast bullet is about 1100 fps. Over 1300 and they suffer. As for alloys the best luck we have is lynotype and ww at 5050 its hard enough to not deform and malable enough not to fracture. In conclusion i have quite a few wfn molds and honestly would never waste my money on another. Sure they work good at hunting range but no better then a keith or lfn. We do some shooting at long range and if the loads i use in a gun wont fly there no good to me. I can see no advantage to them for any purpose. Put a good kieth in an animal and the animal dies PERIOD! and personaly i prefer the way that elmer designed them with a slightly long nose and a medium sized metplat. They fly well and hit plenty hard enough. Some of the swcs with shorter noses and wider metplats have given me fits with accuracy. Just my opinion boys aint worth much but it has been proven in testing and in the field to me over and over.

Lloyd Smale,
I agree with you, but with one caveat. Your way is no fun.

Sure the keith style will work on everything, but if you admit that to yourself then you would not have an excuse to buy a new mold, experiment, and have fun with Cast bullets.

Also that would probably hurt Mr. Smith's feelings.

David

Below, see the results of pure lead bullets at low velolcity. The bullets were Lyman 480-SP in pure lead at 501 grs at 1150 fps from a 45-70. The one on the left I dug from a dirt bank at exactly 210 yards. It weighs 493 grs, a weight retention of 98 %. Of more importance, it mushroomed to a diameter of 7/8" x 1 1/8".

The bullet on the right hit a gravel road at 50 yards and bounced into a dirt bank. It weighs 459 grs, a weight retention of 91 %. It became a buzz saw-like projectile 3/4" wide and 1 7/8" long. Imagine either of those bullets whizzing through flesh.

I killed one big buck with this bullet/load, but didn't recover the bullet. The buck, needless to say, dropped in his tracks.

Yep, yo9u obviously need an LBT bullet. I asked on his forum about a velocity limit I had hit with the .358, and was informed if I didn't use his lube, his bore lap, and his bullet, it would never shoot more than plinking loads. And that was after I had already posted the bullet weight and velocity. The bullet was flying along above the velocity of a factory load with a lighter bullet. Hmmmm....

Posted on buffalo Bores web page:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/meplats.htm

A Word About Meplats

Some ammo and bullet manufacturers are promoting meplat size as something it is not! We at Buffalo Bore can use any meplat size we choose on our cast bullet loadings. We have done a great deal of research to determine optimum meplat size per caliber of bullet.

First, we have noted that in most situations, too big a meplat will carry too much weight forward on the bullet and be detrimental to accuracy. These detrimental effects to accuracy are most apparent at long range, but are also often noticeable at close range. With too much weight forward on the bullet nose, the bullet tends to loose some external stability as it flies through the air. Also, with too large a meplat, the bullet loses its aerodynamic qualities and becomes a close range only proposition.

Second and of greatest importance is that no cast bullet nose remains constant after making impact with any type of big game animal! We have used every commercially available bullet and several that are not commercially available in our testing. Upon impact, even the best alloys will smear the meplat edges. As the bullet passes through muscle and bone, its shape on the nose is changing rapidly. Some bullet noses will start to mushroom slightly while others will rupture and a little and still others will smear off the meplat edges to varying degrees. This happens with EVERY cast bullet in the world! Because of these factors, there is no way to determine the original meplat size of any cast bullet recovered from game or other test medium. We recognize that the bigger meplat will initially "slap" a little harder on impact, but after an inch or two of penetration, all bets are off as to how the meplat is performing - as it will not stay constant. Even in identical testing situations, all results on identical cast bullets vary. Also, no two field conditions can EVER be duplicated! So, we feel it is impossible to attribute terminal performances to meplat sizes that are changing in varying and unknown degrees every time an animal is shot.

In our testing, we have noticed that meplats over .300 inch (in 45-70 cartridges) may �hang up� when being fed though modern lever action designs. Of our seven factory test lever guns chambered in 45-70, two of them will experience a �glitch� when loaded cartridges with bullets having a meplat over .300 inch in diameter are fed through the action at high speed. Wouldn�t this be great in an emergency??? The old adage of �too much of any one thing, is not good�, certainly applies with meplats.

While we like big meplats, we are not willing to attribute performance characteristics to them that do not exist. Further, as previously noted, there are external and internal ballistic tradeoffs in increasing meplat size and putting too much weight and area forward on the bullet. After extensive testing, we have chosen meplat sizes that we believe will give the best overall performance in a wide range of uses and needs. We think we are using the best overall designs anywhere in the industry. We have come to this conclusion after much experience and testing.

Found On Randy Garret's web page:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/071701.asp


by Randy Garrett

The meplat is the frontal circular flat of a flatnose bullet that first comes into contact with game. The size or diameter of the meplat effects the performance of a cast bullet in a number of important ways. Among these are terminal stability, bullet length and subsequent power generation efficiency, wound channel diameter, rate of incapacitation, aerodynamics, and, in lever-action rifles, magazine safety. We take the view, common to experienced users of large caliber cast bullets, that a large frontal flat or meplat is essential in producing quick and humane kills on big game.

Terminal Stability
Terminal stability refers to a bullet's impact characteristics. Upon impact, a bullet can be expected to penetrate the game animal. However, a bullet's path through game tissue, whether it is straight, deep, or angular, is largely determined by its construction and design characteristics. Primary among those characteristics is the weight carrying capacity of the front of the bullet. Bullets with less weight in the forward half of the bullet, as compared to the rear half, tend to be less terminally stable and tend to exhibit characteristics such as yaw which reduce penetration depth, than bullets that carry similar amounts of weight in the front and rear. Since bullets with wider or broader meplats tend to carry more weight up front than bullets with smaller meplats, they tend to be more terminally stable and, as a consequence, produce deeper and straighter penetration channels. This is most apparent with relatively short bullets such as those used in handguns. The mechanics associated with this are pretty clear. When a bullet carries significantly more weight in the rear than in the front, there is a definite tendency for the rear of the bullet to overtake the front of the bullet upon impact. In other words, the bullet tends to go sideways. This is due to the complete loss of aerodynamic stability that occurs upon impact, and the greater momentum of the rear of the bullet when compared to the lighter front end of a small meplated bullet. This is especially important for those shooting the handgun, since smaller meplats have a relatively greater effect on the front to rear weight-carrying ratio of the bullet, since the bullets are shorter. When the subject turns to rifle bullets, especially the longer bullets that characterize heavy 45-70 bullets, the influence of meplat diameter on the front to rear weight ratios is generally less relevant to terminal stability, since the bullets are longer. Meplat diameter does, however, contribute to bullet length, with wider meplated bullets exhibiting shorter overall length than smaller meplated bullets of the same weight. This is quite relevant to the 45-70, as overall cartridge length is a critical measurement that cannot be exceeded if the cartridge is to chamber properly. Consequently, given a cartridge of a specific length, the cartridge with the shorter bullet possesses less seating depth, and as a result provides more room in the cartridge case for gunpowder. Simply stated, such a bullet can produce more power at the same pressure, or equal power at lower pressure, when compared to a bullet with greater length. Since broader meplated 45-70 bullets tend to be shorter at any given weight, they tend to provide a superior power to pressure ratio.

Wound Channel Diameter
The diameter of the wound channel produced by a proper hard-cast bullet is far more a product of the diameter of the meplat than the diameter of the bullet. This is of critical importance. As a consequence of this, wound channel diameter and the resulting speed of incapacitation can be substantially increased through the use of hard-cast bullets with broad meplats. This is readily observable through wet newspaper penetration testing, or by the careful postmortem examination of big game animals. Interestingly, as can be verified by testing, relatively small increases in meplat diameter produce relatively large increases in wound channel diameter. This is great news, as increased meplat diameter not only contributes to improved terminal stability and power to pressure ratios, it also produces substantially larger wound channels and faster incapacitation. We have observed this in our 44 Magnum and 45-70 production. Interestingly, our 540-grain Hammerhead for the 45-70 produces penetration channels or wound channels that appear to be fully twice the diameter of our 420-grain Hammerhead for the 45-70, yet the difference between the bullets' meplat diameters is only .030-inch. Our 420-grainer sports a meplat diameter of .330-inch and our 540-grainer sports a meplat diameter of .360-inch. What is also clear is that our 420-grainer with its .330-inch meplat produces wound channels substantially larger than those produced by the .300-inch meplat that is all to common to the caliber, and characterized our early efforts in 45-70.

Further considerations
Although broader mepated cast bullets generally produce larger diameter wound channels, sometimes, especially at the relatively high velocities produced by medium weight 45-70 bullets, impact stresses can be great enough to deform the meplat and effect the size and characteristics of the wound channel. Occasionally, when impact occurs at short range into heavy game even the toughest hard-cast bullet will deform at the meplat, reducing its diameter. This is most often observed when the impact occurs at short range into heavy bone, when impact velocity is relatively high. This is one of the primary reasons we offer our very heavy 540-grain Hammerhead, as its extra weight mandates a lower velocity, which tends to protect against significant meplat deformation when engaging the heaviest game. Since game such as buffalo and elephant are invariably shot at short range, logic strongly argues for a heavier bullet at lower velocity. In this way, the major determiners of impact stress, the speed of impact and the toughness of the target, do not tend to overwhelm the strength of the bullet. However, in the great majority of shooting circumstances broad meplated hard-cast bullets, such as our 420-grain Hammerhead, can be depended upon to produce substantially larger wound channels than smaller meplated hard-cast bullets and also provide faster incapacitation. Whereas smaller meplated bullets appear to never produce the large diameter wound channels normally produced by broader meplated bullets, unless they are sufficiently soft to cause expansion, which always limits penetration. This is the primary reason why we have designed our SuperHardCast Hammerheads with the broadest meplats available.

My personal observations are that you should use a cast bullet with a meplat of .285" or larger for most big game. Nevertheless, the meplat can be too big as to limit penetration. If I needed penetration, I would never use a cast bullet over 80% of the bullet's diameter. If I want ultimate bullet "slap" at close range and penetration is not critical, I will use a 83% meplat but no larger.

But you have to consider what alloy your bullets are made with.

Bullet weights will also play a big role as will nose design.

You have to match your bullet to you load and intended target, just like with a jacketed bullet.

What type of firearm are you considering purchasing this bullet for?
What is your intended target?

I use the Ruger Old Army and it holds 41 grs. of Swiss FFFG with a round ball. I use Mathews lube in front of the ball. Beeswax, neatsfoot oil, Nuetrogena facial soap mix. Find it in the BPCR books or if you need it I can post it here. I don't remember exactly but think it is in the 1100 fps area, I can't find my chronograph readings.
The deer was a big doe about 35 yds away. She was next to my fence when I shot her. She made one leap and made it over the fence and collapsed on the other side. It broke a lot of bone and the ball was against the hide on the far side, perfectly mushroomed. There was no meat damage to speak of. I have the utmost faith in this gun now.
Like I said, tailor the alloy to the gun and velocity and all will work. For hard boolits in my magnums I use a large flat meplat that makes up for lack of expansion. If I use a soft boolit I get leading. A hard boolit with a soft nose works good too. The Keith boolit is very good hard or soft. I use heavy boolits because I found they are more accurate in my revolvers and I believe in complete penetration whether handgun or bow. The cap and ball would have gone all the way through if I had not hit both shoulders.
I can't argue with any of you because all of you are correct. Just depends on what works for you. The important thing is handguns are more fun and a lot more effective then most people believe. AND THEY DON'T DESTROY THE DEER AND RUIN MEAT. I have killed a pile of deer with handguns and have never had to track a single one.

25% larger than what????

Hard cast bullets penetrate very well but tissue damage can be minimal, especially when combined with the typically low cast bullet velocites.