Hi to everybody:
I own two very nice and in good condition 9x56 Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles.
I do have some very good loads with jacketed bullets.
The problem is that here in Argentina is not to easy to found jacketed bullets of .358" so I´m thinking in load for them with lead bullets of something around 230-250 gr. at 2000- 2250 fps velocity range.
Now the questions:
Which mould?.
Which hardness?.
Gascheks or not.
Loads for them.
Any sugestion or experience tip in loading this type of rifle/caliber.
I slugged the bore and the diameter is 353-354 and have the sizing for that diameter.
Thank a lot to whom answer
Sincerelly
Guillermo Trotz

With the groove diameter you say you have, a .358" jacketed bullet would be way too large to use in your rifle.
Cast lead would be the way to go and yes, I would suggest gas checks.
MOlds that would probably work would be the RCBS 35-200-FN and 35-250-SP, that last being considered a "custom" mold from RCBS. IIRC, they charged me something like $107 when I ordered mine. In Lyman molds, there's #358315, a 200 gr. bullet, 315318, a 250 gr. bullet, and if you can find one, 3589 or 358009, same mold, different number, a 280 gr. bullet. I know that 3589 is a discontinued mold that if you find one on E-bay, the bids get steep.
Now here is where things might get sticky. Most of those molds cast a bullet .359" to .360" in diameter. Using .354" as the correct groove diameter for your barrel, your cast bullet would have to be sized to .356", although you might get away with .357" if a bullet sized that large and seated in a case will allow it to be chambered. What you would have to do is measure the outside diameter of the case neck from a once fired cartridge. Then, seat a bullet sized .357" in the case after resizing and belling the neck, and measuring the neck once more. If the neck now measures the same or greater than from the fired case, the bullet will be too large and can cause pressure problems because the neck of the case cannot expand enough to release the bullet. The cast bullet should be at least .001" larger than the groove diameter and preferably .002" larger. Now, assuming the mold of choice casts a .359" bullet, for example, to size it to .356" would mean a reduction of .003" which some consider too much and can damage the bullet.
It could be that your only alternative just might be to go the custom mold route. You might try NEI's wb site and see what they have in the .356/.357" range. Sizing a .357" bullet to .356" won't hurt anything, and any bullet in the 200 to 250 gr. range should work just fine.
I hopes this helped some and that I haven't confused the issue.
Paul B.

Thanks for your answer Paul.
Is not so mesy if you read it twice.
´Now ,the jacketed bullets Iam reducing it diameter from .358 to .353 with a reducing die and they work fine.
What do you think the hardness must be, Linotipe, wheelweights or 1:16 tin ?
I will try after christmas the method with the fired case.
I think that for that limited caliber and rifles that is not posible to raise to much the pressure I will stay with no more than 250 gr. bullets
Thank you again
Sincerelly

Well, I'm glad I didn't confuse you too much. I probably shoot 10 cast bullets or more for every jacketed bullet. Frankly, plain old wheel weights should work just fine as that is all I used for years. I'd just try those first. If you have access to linotype, try 10 pounds of wheel weight with one pound of linotype. It usually makes for a nicer casting bullet and better mold fill out. While straight linotype makes really great bullets, it also kicks the cost of the bullet up by quite a bit.
My pet alloy that I currently use is a bit complicated but works quite well. it is 10 pounds of Wheel weights, onle pound of linotype, a 36" piece of 95/5 percent lead free solder and one-third cup of magnum bird shot. A freshly cast bullet with run right at 10 BHN, and will age harden within two weeks to 14 BHN. If you want them harder than that, you can oven treat them at 425 degrees for at least one hour and quickly drop them into water. They will immediately harden to at least 19 BHN and if allowed to sit (out of the watwer) for two to three weeks, they will harden to somewhere betweem 29 to 31 on the BHN scale. Linotype alone cannot be heat treated as fresh linotype runs about 22 on the BHN scale.
FWIW, I shoot 170 gr. cast bullets exclusively in my 30-30 Winchester made strictly from wheel weights. I shoot them at full power and take deer without any problems.
FWIW, you can also oven treat straight wheel weights as described above and get bullets nearly as hard as linotype.
Oven treating is not all that complicated. I use a cheap electric toaster oven when I do mine. First if it doesn't have some kind of tray, make a basket out of 1/4" mesh screen material. Start out with the oven at about 400 degrees and let the bullets "cook" for maybe 20 minutes at full heat. Then, raise the heat about five degrees for 10 minutes. Go another five degrees for another 10 minutes. Continue raising the temperature by as close to five degrees as possible (takes a bit of guess work here as the dials are not quite that detailed)until the bullets start to slump. (Begin to sag just prior to melting.) Reduce the heat by ten degrees and call it good. It's best to use reject bullets for that phase. No use messing up the good bullets.
OK, now that we have reached that point, size the bullets without lubing them. Put the gas checks on at that time. Do the heat treating and water quenching. Set the bullets aside for a week or two to age harden. Then after age hardening, lube the bullets using a sizing die .001" larger than what you sized the bullets to. If you use the same size die, you can damage the heat treatment. So, if you size to .356", use a .357" dies to lube.
Frankly though, I think you can just use straight wheel weights with a gas check up to 2000 FPS without having any serious leading problems.
If you have not yet picked out a mold, I think that probably the RCBS #35-250-SP would give you the best chance for success. The only drawback is RCBS considers it a "custom" mold and prices it accordingly. I do believe you can either duplicate the original factory load with it or come quite close.
If I was working up a load for the gun, I would probably pick one of the 4895s, either Hodgden's or IMR, take the starting load for the .358 Winchester and consider that maximim. I'd drop back 10 percent from that and work back up. Most starting loads for the .358 seem to be right at 2000 FPS with a 250 gr. bullet.
Hope this helped some more without adding to the confusion.
Paul B.

Dang, wish I had seen this a week ago. I had a RCBS 35-200-FN that cast .356. Sent it back to RCBS for replacement.

Loading information for the 9x56 Mannlicher-Schoenauer caliber

Bullet Wt. Powder Wt. Velocity Source
All bullets jacketed (unless noted) and sized to fit the barrel. All loads maximum.

IMR 3031 powder
280gr 43.0gr 2,010fps Phil Sharpe & Ideal #38
250gr 45.0gr 2,167fps C. Ebert MC #73 (23" bbl)
245gr 44.0gr 2,103fps Ken Waters (23" bbl)
225gr 45.0gr 2,196fps C. Ebert MC #73 (23" bbl)
200gr 45.0gr 2,258fps C. Ebert MC #73 (23" bbl)
200gr 45.0gr 2,140fps Ken Waters (23" bbl)
200gr 44.0gr 2,013fps C. Ebert MC #73 (18" bbl)
200gr 44.0gr 2,185fps P.O. Ackley

H 4895 powder
245gr 45.0gr 2,114fps Ken Waters (23" bbl)
200gr 47.0gr 2,253fps Ken Waters (23" bbl)

IMR4895 powder
220gr 44.0gr 2,085fps P.O. Ackley
200gr 45.0gr 2,240fos P.O. Ackley

IMR4320 powder
245gr 47.0gr 2,258fps Ken Waters (23" bbl)
200gr 46.0gr 2,200fps Ken Waters (23" bbl)

IMR4064 powder
280gr 46.0gr 2,160fps P.O. Ackley
280gr 46.0gr 2,035fps Phil Sharpe & Ideal #38
245gr 46.0gr 2,130fps Ken Waters (23" bbl)
200gr 48.0gr 2,187fps Ken Waters (23" bbl)
200gr 45.0gr 2,165fps P.O. Ackley

Reported Factory Loads (from COTW)
280gr 1,850fps Remington
245gr 2,100fps Eley-Kynoch
245gr 2,200fps Kynoch
205gr 2,114fps Unidentified Factory

Reduced Loads -- miscellaneous powder & bullets
280gr 38.0gr 1,715fps Phil Sharpe & Ideal #38 -- IMR3031
250gr 37.0gr 1,840fps Lyman -- IMR3031
220gr 38.0gr 1,885fps Lyman -- IMR3031
165gr 13.5gr 1,186fps Lyman cast 358238 -- SR4759
165gr 7.0gr 1,100fps E Lyman cast 358238 -- Unique

Note: I did not include some of P.O. Ackley's loads that were substantially higher than loads seen anywhere else. There is no information on whether he obtained these loads with early Mannlichers or from rechambered Mausers/Springfields.

Note: The 9x56 MS reportedly may have an undersized bore. The bullet MUST be matched to the bore size or excessive pressure will result.


I have a 9.5x57 MS and have been fairly unsuccessful at lead bullet loads. I have only found ONE bullet that will feed properly from the MS helical magazine. That is the 375167 round nose. It is approx the same weight and nose contour as the original bullet that the magazine was made for. All other .375" bullet I have tried were made for the 38-55 and have short, blunt noses, and lots of lube grooves. They don't feed. The problem with the 375167 is that it is plain-base. No gas-check. I have cast them at up to Bhn 18 and heat treated them to up to about Bhn 25. Even so, I have to keep the velocity WAAAAY below factory levels.

I don't know what kind of bullets are available for the 9mm, but you will have the same problems unless you can find a gas-check, round-nose bullet that is approx the same weight as the original bullet.

Thank´s a lot to all of you .The day after christmas I get a hard prostatic infection who send me to the hospital till today .
That is I have´nt answer any more .
Now I present my apologizes and start to process the information.
I´m returning to the ranch next week where I will start trying all this.
Sincerelly
Guillermo Trotz