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I am having leading problems with lazer Cast bullets from Oregon. My question? is there any thing strange I should know about this brand? I thought tey were supposed to be one of the best. Thanks maddog Joshua 24:15 www.teamfaithfull.net / My granddaughter "Multitudes loose the sight of that which is, by setting their eyes on that which is not". | ||
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MD; you don't give enough information, what are you shooting them in, rifle, pistol or revolver? Are they gas checked or plain based, what does your barrel slug(throats on a revolver) and what are the bullets sized to, how fast are you shooting them? If the cast bullets are smaller than groove diameter you will get leading, if they are too hard and you don't apply enough pressure to upset the bullet you will get leading, if you load them too hot and pressure is high enough to make the alloy fail you will lead, then there is also the lube, condition of the bore and if dealing with a revolver you have to have throats that are the same dia as the groove or even better a few tenths larger(your bullets have to be sized to the throat dia.). Tell us what you are shooting them in and the loads you are trying. | |||
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MADDOG Most everyone will have some leading with all commercial cast bullet that use the hard wax lubes. Some loads lead more than others. Try tumbling your bullets in Lee Liquid Alox then run through an appropriate Lee sizer. (get the Lee sizer kit and you get the LLA) I wash the commercial lube off with Coleman fuel and then lube with Javelina. I get no leading from 700 to 1400 fps. Larry Gibson | |||
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Ya, I tried some in a .40 S&W and had it leave lead shards sticking about 1/4" out the end of the barrel, that I could pull out with my fingers. The hard commercial lubes are ALL junk. They use them so they don't come off in the packaging. Also, the lead material Lazer cast use's seems extremely grainy. Not sure what it is, but I have found nothing on the market as crappy! I cast my own. I like Apache Blue, and LBT lubes. There are also lot's of home made recipes out there that are soft and work well, for cheap. Cheers! | |||
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Most of the commercial cast bullets are one to two thousandths to small for the average firearm, especially revolvers. 45acp .4525 or .453 45 Colt .454 44 spec. .430 or .432 357 .3585 or .359 375 .378 45-70 .459 to 460 405 .413 As long a the powder gases can blow by the bullet, you'll get leading. Jim "Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force." --Thomas Jefferson | |||
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 Right on! I don't care what kind of lube you use, if your bullets are too small you will get leading. | |||
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i used to shoot about 5000 hard cast bullets through my tricked out springfield armory 1911. Many times when checking targets you'd see some of the bullets in the berm. Pulled more than a few. Every one had the hard bullet lube still in the lube groves. Just for the heck of it, I unlubed about twenty of the bullets and coated them with lee liquid alox bullet lube. Shot them at the same targets. No leading and although some LLA was left in the grooves it appeared that the lla was doing its job.A lot of the complaints for commercial cast bullets are, undersized for the bore, bullet alloy way to hard, lube does nothing to prevent leading.Then a lot of commercial casters are wedded to only one sizing diameter. Some of them will offer different sizesbut back to bullet hardness and chrummy lube.And the tests were dome with 230grFB at 830FPS no barn burner loads here.Frank | |||
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Then how come when I wash the hard wax lube off said "undersize" commercial cast bullets and relube them with Javelina they don't lead? Does the Javeline make the swell up to proper size? I don't think so. I've redone so many thousands of commercial bullets for use in semi-auto handguns, revolvers, Contenders, rifles and even sub MGs and the story is always the same. Hard wax lube they lead. Relube with Javelina (other 50/50 alox lubes work as well) and no leading. Larry Gibson | |||
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Hell I don't know, maybe it's in your head.  I don't shoot many commercial cast bullets, but have shot a few(2) 500 boxes of laser casr in 357 @ about 1000/1100 fps and 500 30 cal rifle, no significant leading, neither was as accurate as any I cast myself. Now the 30 cal rifle came sized .310, and a gas check design with no gas check, intended for 30/30 Cowboy shooting I guess, I ran them through the lube sizer and added a GC, fired them in 308 Win. From 1600 up to 2100 fps no bullets leaded, but they didn't shoot worth a damn either, the 30 cal 165 gr had .297/8 nose on the bore riders, too small for my taste. You can use all the LLA you want, I personally think another urban myth has made it's way into your head, now your convinced you've got the answer, I think you only have part of it. Oh did you pressure trace those loads, never mind I know the answer.   now go have a beer and a couple Krispy Kreams and come up with a snappy come back.  THE REAL ANSWER IS CONTAINED IN THE SECOND POST IN THIS THREAD< THAT"S A FACT< NOT ANOTHER MYTH>I made them bold in case you are having trouble seeing through the bottom of that beer bottle! | |||
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swheeler Well, it may very well be "in my head" but then I've got no lead in my barrels either. Guess the end justifies the means. You've really got heartburn that I can do something you can't. It's a pitty as jealousy can be an ugly thing. I'd have a Krispy Kream but it seems Hot Core got them all this morning! Guess I'm off to Dunkin" Donuts since I don't have to clean the lead out of barrels. Additionally it shows what you know....it's a whiskey glass, not a beer bottle. Make them "bold" all you want. The fact remaines that most Laser Cast are not undersize for the barrels, the throats perhaps but not the bores. Most other commercial cast bullets come in "standard" size or slightly over. They still lead in most barrels. It is because of the poor hard wax lube. Simply by replacing the lube with a good 50/50 alox/beeswax lube solves the problem. This is with the same loads. Laser cast are very hard and you will not get obturation at normal cast bullet pressures anyway. You have a nice day and maybe I'll see you at the donut shop, liquor store or perhaps a bar, eh? Larry Gibson | |||
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You Canadian now,eh?   You are a legend in your own mind! | |||
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It's the rpm threshold Larry that is the problem.  | |||
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Too funny  | |||
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starmetal; appreciate your warped sense of humor. swheeler; actually my mothers side of the family are Canadian's. Eh? Now there's two real comedians! Goes to show when you can't get a point across with facts go to personal attacks:  Larry Gibson | |||
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Since handgun & rifle bbl. dimensions vary so widely by manufacturer and by era, i.e., when said bbls. were produced, it's hard to determine what the "correct" commercial CB diameter should be. Ergo, it is entirely possible that some commercial CB's are undersized, but it's equally possible that some aren't. Moreover, the commercial CB's I find in our bermes usually have most of the factory applied lube intact. By way of contrast, my own CB's (WW's + 1% Sn, not hardened) dug from the same bermes, contain almost no residual lube (but they are fitted to the firearm) and I get little/no leading*. I'm thinking a lube that's too hard for the intended purpose and velocity + an undersized, hard CB is a recipe for bore leading. However, as Larry says, using a softer lube may save the day. *Rarely exceed 1,800fps in my rifles and 1,200fps in my revolvers. | |||
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I couldn't resist Larry. I reckon my sense of humor has too fast a twist, thus why it's warped. | |||
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 all in good clean fun Larry  My Great Grand father became a nationalised citizen about 130 miles from here, 1870's, he was Canadian, eh. | |||
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Seems like a lot of guys here agree with my feelings. I tried them and had dismal accuracy and leading, good thing they were free samples! I hate hard lube too. Yes, they were also too small for my bore. | |||
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Starmetal I went out the other day and shot 20 shots of 311466 at 2700 fps out of my 10" twist '06. I had 3 three shot groups right at 1 moa, one 3 shot group at 1.25" and one 3 shot group at 1.5"...all at 100 yards! What do you think of that, five sub 1.5 moa groups? Took me a while measuring to come up with those 5 groups but I thought they were pretty good, eh? Kind of disproves the RPM threshold theory when you can get 5 excellent groups like that out of a mere 20 shots. BTW; I just disregarded the other 5 shots as they weren't nowhere's near enough to any of the others to make any kind of group out of them (improved cylinder maybe?). Larry Gibson | |||
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I think that getting everything right that you will eventually get 10 shot groups like that. Also shows me that if three group like that and the other two don't that it's not the twist, but something else like say fouling maybe, even barrel heating. First three in that small size group is all you need for hunting, even for coyote or groundhogs. | |||
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Joe I guess that one went right over your head. That was a 20 shot group of the same load all fired at the same aining point. I fiddled around sorting the various bullet holes that were closest together until I came up with those 5 seperate "3 shot groups" out of the 20. It was all tongue in cheek. However, that brings up the subject of "random dispersion". Just suppose I was shooting only 3 shot groups and the ones I just happened to test were ones that landed in a 1" group. Had I yelled "Joe is right (maybe Bass too!)" and loaded up 3 more to go hunting with and they happened to be the 3 shots that I could have called a 14" group (remember the 5 "improved cylinder" shots) I might have been very upset over missing or gut shooting a deer with what I thought was a 1" moa capable load but really was a 14 moa capale load. A long time ago I learned that one 3 shot group means little. BTW; the actual 14" group was all "about the twist". Larry Gibson | |||
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Where can one buy bullets like you guys are speaking of. With the good lube? Joshua 24:15 www.teamfaithfull.net / My granddaughter "Multitudes loose the sight of that which is, by setting their eyes on that which is not". | |||
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MD, You can get it from any of the shooting supply houses, e.g., Mid-South, Midway, Cableas, etc. However, you'll need to remove the old lube first and either smear the soft lube on by hand or use a Lyman, RCBS, etc. lube-sizing machine to apply it. Depending on the velocity you wish to achieve, consider Lee Precision's Liquid Alox or Lar45's much less expensive clone of it. | |||
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Larry actually it didn't go over my head. I just didn't want to bite, but I meant what I said. As an aside there's this super tactical rifle builder in Oklahoma and his 308's don't have anything faster then an eleven twist. That means that some are faster. His 338 Lapua barrels have a nine twist. | |||
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Joe I think you are inhaling to many fumes from fluxing.....If he doesn't build anything "faster than an eleven twist" then how is it "that some are faster"? Also what does does building tactical rifles with twists meant for jacketed bullets have to do with the RPM threshold which applies to cast bullets? If you're hallucinating there is a correlation I'd advise you look at the CBA BR stats for for the winning rifles, even the also rans. They all are using slow twists to manage the RPMs and negate the adverse effect of the RPM threshold. You might want to get a breath of fresh air. Larry Gibson | |||
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Larry I don't think you disproved anything, you are just using the wrong twist- too fast, fire those same loads in a 1;14-1;15 would be better, and you'll do just fine. cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese 194.4k v 138.8k rpms, keep trying you'll get it, maybe | |||
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Because you believe in overspinning a bullet, I don't...jacketed or cast....to a point. That point is one that is very exaggerated...like a 1 in 5 twist. Oh I forgot to say that I don't always use a flux...plus I cast outdoors. I've done all this Larry, got very good accuracy with cast at very high rpm and have gotten very good accuracy with jacketed bullets at very very high rpm. | |||
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Larry fluxes with hemp, that's why he's always spinning so fast.  | |||
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swheeler Where have you been? That last test was the last of the RPM test I began months ago. That particular bullet shoots about 2 moa out of my 14" twist Palma barrel at the same velocity. The difference in accuracy is directly related to the RPM....duh! Hemp, eh? Cool dude.......  Larry Gibson | |||
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That's where your mistaken Joe, I do not believe in "over spinning a bullet". Quite the contraire, I understand that there is a balance between a bullet and the amount of RPM it needs to stabilize for best accuracy. I have proven that through numerous tests and so have many others. I, along with most shooters have gotten very good accuracy with jacketed bullets at high RPM. Since you keep bringing jacketed bullets into it; it is very well known fact that imbalances in jacketed bullets (caused by manufacture or by firing) are accentuated by the RPM. Now the difference in accuracy shown between 10, 11 and 12" twist .308Ws or between 7, 8 aand 9" twist .223s may be hard to detect at 100 yards but there is a noticeable difference at 600 to 1000 yards. Match shooters long ago learned to match the twist to the bullet or visa versa. Bench resters are also well aware that the bullet and barrel must match for best accuracy. As to cast bullet (the subject of this forum) it is well known by many the adverse effects of RPM. I just told you about 5 very good groups I shot with that 20 shots. What's your point? You say you shoot good accuracy at high velocity yet the last time I nailed you down it was "holding paper" with your .223 AR at something like 2800 fps. Perhaps it was a little better like 6 or 9", I don't remember exactly. But you openly admit that AR to be sub MOA capable. I'll bet if you slow those cast bullets down to the RPM threshold the accuracy will be much better. That brings up the point you constantly fail to grasp; the whole RPM threshold is simply about where cast bullet's accuracy begins to deteriorate. It does not say that accuacy must be horrible after that with bullets flying off into never never land. The RPM Threshold does not mean that anyone can't get "good" accuracy above it. If you get 2-3 moa at 2400 fps with a 311291 out of a 10" twist '06 (I can and so can many others) that can be considered "very good accuracy" for that cast bullet in a 10" twist '06. But so what? The point is if with that same bullet in that same rifle you can get 1 moa at 1850 fps then that proves the RPM threshold theory. The RPPM threshold is not to say you can't get "very good accuracy" above the RPM threshold. What is simply means is that the best accuracy with cast bullets is going to be in or below the RPM threshold. The fact that you get "very good accuarcy" at high RPM with cast bullets ...well so what, so do I and so does a lot of other cast bullet shooters. However, we all get better accuracy much more consistently in or below the RPM threshold with that same bullet and that same rifle. Again, what's your point? Larry Gibson | |||
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Folks I'm going to clear this statement by Larry Gibson up: "As to cast bullet (the subject of this forum) it is well known by many the adverse effects of RPM. I just told you about 5 very good groups I shot with that 20 shots. What's your point? You say you shoot good accuracy at high velocity yet the last time I nailed you down it was "holding paper" with your .223 AR at something like 2800 fps. Perhaps it was a little better like 6 or 9", I don't remember exactly. But you openly admit that AR to be sub MOA capable. I'll bet if you slow those cast bullets down to the RPM threshold the accuracy will be much better." One of the fellows on Cast Boolit forums says that high velocity, high rpm cast bullets out of very fast twist rifle fly off into wonder wonder land never striking the target. Now I've told Larry what I'm about to tell you at least a dozen times, but yet he misconstrues it to fit his needs. I have an AR15 HBAR with the 1-7 twist. Being I don't have a 6.5 Swede I used the AR15 for the test. I needed some long heavy 22 caliber cast bullets which I graciously got from Bullshop off the Cast Boolit forum. They were 70 grs and of unheat treated wheelweighs. I loaded them to well over 3000 fps using my jacketed bullet charge. I put a big cardboard square up on the range and I put a sheet of printer paper in the center and in the center of that a bullseye. That bullseye was MERELY an aiming REFERENCE point. Told Larry this a dozen times. I wanted to see if any of the bullet disappeared or keyholed. I WASN'T shooting for a GROUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The results were all of the bullets stayed ON the printer paper with no keyholes. Larry uses that as my results. He doesn't tell you about the 6.5 Grendel I have with an 8 twist that shoots ragged holes at very high velocity and rpm, only to say that it's an exception. Exception my ass. I have more rifles with fast twists that do it and so does 45 2.1, BaBore, 357 Maxium, and others on the Cast Boolit forum. There have been countless rpm threshold, twist, etc., threads started on the Cast Boolit forum and Larry gets in them and runs his mouth and bullshit and the moderators EVERY time locked the thread because it gets out of control. LARRY...FOR THE LAST FREAKING TIME I USED THE PRINTER PAPER AND BULLSEYE FOR AN AIMING REFERENCE POINT ONLY. If you want a group out of my AR15 with cast at high rpm get Bullshop to let me borrow his mould and I'll do it for you. Subject closed. | |||
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Joe Maybe you should calm down. With regards to your AR. You held paper, that is what I said because that is what you told me. Now you may have conducted that test to see if any bullets would "fly off into wonder wonder land never striking the target" but I'll bet you were indeed aiming. If you weren't aiming you wouldn't have held paper. Besides it's you (except for this time) that always brings that test up to prove "accuracy" at high RPM. The only thing you proved was that the bullets "held paper". You would still get much better accuracy if you dropped the RPM down into the RPM threshold and you know it. You, 45 2.1, Bass and a couple others all claim to shoot accurate groups at high RPM. Again, SO WHAT! So do I and a lot of others. The point to the RPM threshold is that better accuracy (UNDERSTAND THAT; "BETTER" ACCURACY!) can be had in or below the RPM threshold. Everyone but a few of you understands that. Tell you what Joe; take your 6.5 Grendal with the 8" twist and load your high RPM load and load an accurate load with that is within the RPM threshold. Shoot 3 ten shot groups with each load without cleaning the barrel. Then come back and tell us about it. Better yet why don't you load that bullet from 120,000 RPM to as high a RPM as you want in say 1,000 RPM increments and lets watch the groups open when you go above the RPM threshold. If you'd run that simple test you would see the truth of the matter. You don't run that test because you think you "know better" based on a few groups shot now and then. The test will prove you don't know better. We all have exceptional groups that we have fired at high RPM but can we do it every time with consistency? You tried to do it once and failed just like everyone else. Strange that, of all people to bring up the Cast Boolit Forum, the one who got his ass thrown off the Cast Boolit Forum for "running his mouth and bullshit" should bring that forum up! Now I do get on those threads and discuss the issue with facts derived from extensive tests. You and the others argue with one or two 3 shot groups and witchcraft theories which go off on tangents. None of you want to run the simple test mentioned above. The threads mostly get locked up because someone starts using the language you used (and I quoted). That is what gets the threads locked up and it's what got you thrown off. Again, Im not the one who was thrown off that forum, you are. Seems like the kettle shouldn't be calling the pot black here. Larry Gibson | |||
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Where have I been? casting, loading, shooting | |||
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First off the test was ONLY to see if the bullets were going to fly off. Why in the world wouldn't I aim at something center mass of the cardboard?? Should I have maybe aimed at the large oak tree next to the target Larry? Second untempered wheelweights...what the hell do you expect those to do at over 3000 fps in a 1 in 7 twist? I'm surprised they didn't strip in the bore, lead the bore, and bend and fly off like Ric claims. What's me getting kicked off the forum have to do with cast and rpms? I got kicked because I wouldn't take any of Tpr Brets or Deputy Al's shit. There have been more that are fed up with certain moderators, but that's another story. Now I wonder if you're a conservative to have to slump that low to discredit my shooting. Lots of people are fed up with your baloney on the forum too. Why you think the rpm threads get locked out. I'm finished Larry. | |||
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Joe We've been over this many times. I'll only ask that you run the simple test I've asked you to do many times. If you run that test you will see what I am talking about. " What's me getting kicked off the forum have to do with cast and rpms?" About the same thing as you bringing up the threads being locked; absolutely nothing. Instead of going off on isoteric subjects like that why don't you just run the test. That test is germain to cast bullets and RPM. Why don't you try the test? Joe, I'm not discrediting your shooting at all. I believe you can shoot. That is not the problem. You can shoot some high RPM loads with accuracy also. That is not the problem. The problem is you fail to understand the RPM threshold is not about where good accuracy is. It is about where the BEST ACCURACY is. You shoot some very good accuracy at high RPM. I do to. So does Bass, 45 2.1 and BigBore. That it can be done is not the point. The point is that we all will shoot the consistently BEST ACCURACY with cast bullets down in or below the RPM threshold. By contolling RPMs through the twist we can shoot at a much higher velocity with equal accuracy. For example; with Lyman 311466 in my 3 different twist .308Ws I can consistently shoot 1.5 moa (10 shot groups) or less groups with all three at the top end of the RPM threshold. After thant I can shoot 2-3 moa (10 shot groups) with all 3 twists for another couple hundred fps. The difference is the 10" twist shoots the 1.5 moa or less up through 1950 fps. The 12" twist shoots the 1.5 or less moa up through 2200 fps and the 14" twist shoots the same 1.5 moa or less up through 2500 fps. The RPM of all three is about the same. The difference is the velocity with which each can attain that BEST ACCURACY. The higher velocities are possible with BEST ACCURACY when the RPM is controlled by using a slower twist. With the 14" twist I can maintain 3 moa (5 shot groups) up through 2800+ fps. That is very good accuracy for a cast bullet at that velocity. The reason is the RPM with the 14" twist at that velocity is just over the RPM threshold at 145,500 RPM. In the 10" twist the RPM at that velcoity (2825 fps) would be 195,700 RPM. Quite frankly that load out of the 10" twist "barely holds paper" and that is when I AM aiming. As anyone should be able to see the difference is just one of controlling the RPM. Now, almost anybody who has worked up a cast bullet load using a 10" twist rifle and medium or slow powders knows that accuracy is best in the 1800 to 1950 fps range. They also know that as velocity increases over 1950 fps the accuracuracy starts to deteriorate. (deteriorate does not mean the bullets are flying off the paper, it means that the groups aren't as good is all). This may mean that groups go from 2 moa at 1900 fps to 4 moa at 2350 fps to "barely holding paper" at 2800+ fps. The reason that accuracy deteriorates is the increase in RPM. Try the test I mentioned above. It is, after all, just "working up a load" for accuracy. The effects of the accuracy deterioration can be mitigated. We have discussed those numerous times. But by mitigating the effects of the RPM's affect does not mean that the affect of the RPM is not there. It just means we can control those adverse affects to a certain degree up to a certain point. Try the test Joe. Larry Gibson BTW; Yes there are 4 or 5 membrs who tire of my "balony" on the Cast Boolit Forum. However I've gotten PMs from many, many more in support of the RPM threshold who all believe it. There also are numerous posts on the CBF in support of it. The several members you mention are the ones that usually get the threads locked when their language gets out of hand. They also refuse to run the tests with the exception of Bass. He has, at least, ran a couple test and I have ran a couple at his suggestion. The tests all prove the RPM threshold theory. Simply because several of you believe it is "baloney" doesn't make it "baloney". The facts speak for themselves. Run the test Joe. | |||
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Larry in a way I've tried the test. My 260 Rem is one. It's a very finicky rifle for cast. The twist isn't super fast, but fast at 1 in 9. I started off low with it. I upped the charge gradually. The groups were terrible. Then they went to vertical stringing. So I upped the charge more and the groups started to get round. Upped it more and viola, that was it. It shot better at the higher velocity then lower. The 6.5 Grendel was different. I started out low and slow with pistol powders. It proved this rifle would shoot cast. Kept upping the charge and went to rifle powders...the groups stayed the same...small and good. Then on this round I ran out of case capacity before achieving really high velocity. If you ask why not do that with the 260, well the 260 doesn't have a really good barrel on it. It's a Shaw barrel and has loose spots along the bore in addition the bore and groove are on the loose side for a 6.5 caliber. In fact you know how well that Saeco 140 shoots in my Grendel. Well tried it in the 260 and it's terrible. I thought it would be because it's mainly a bore rider bullet and nose fit the bore very loose. I also pushed the 7mm-08 with the Lee 135 gr and you now the results of that..excellent. The CZ550 in 30-06 shoots pretty good but really haven't tried to push it hard. The Yugo 8x57 I have pushed hard and also with that very heavy 200 some grain bullet. It seems to hold the same group size slow or fast. Wish it was scoped as the best group I got with my aging eyes and a peep sight is a tightly nestled 5/8 group at 100 yards with the Lee 175 gr. | |||
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Joe Please define "slow" and "fast". Are you chronographing or guestimating? Larry Gibson | |||
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I think this thread has been hi jacked! Off discussing 40 year old rpm threshold articles by Carl Johnson and a lot of back patting, not much to help Maddog  Over and Out | |||
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Yes chronographing Slow: 1800 fps and down Fast: 2400 fps and up (7mm-08 was 2710 fps) | |||
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I will not suggest a method of analyzing the data but if you examine the results of the lever gun performance data you will find that there is some potential for the RPM limit to exist. This data was not generated to test for such a limit so it would be difficult for it to be biased. Lever gun performance studies BTW there is a lot of Lazer cast data here but it carries a disclaimer to use at your own risk. | |||
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