Is there a way to seat gas checks on a bullet without using a sizer? Maybe like something for a reloading press that would seat them or a hand tool?

Seat them or crimp them?

I seat them with thumb pressure on the bench. Running it through the die crimps them on tighter. They should be seated before they go into the die, otherwise they may crimp on cockeyed.

Lyman makes an attachment for seating the check before sizing. You would only need to use when the check fit is too tight to seat by hand.

What are you trying to solve/avoid?

I'm meaning to crimp them.

quote:

Originally posted by trekker111:
I'm meaning to crimp them.

I've not heard of such a device but it would come in handy.
Jim

Jim,

That Lyman deal is just basically a washer that fits in that circle hole in the die retaining nut. You just lay it on there put your check on it holding your bullet over it and draw the ram down to force the bullet shank inside the check. Thing is making sure everything is aligned so the check goes on straight. I just use a flat holeless washer that fits that recess on mine, when I have tight fitting checks.

Here's a picture of the Lyman one at midway: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=335653

Joe

I use this kit from those clever folks at Lee Precision:

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1171...atalog/lubesize.html

That is a shellholder adapter the bullet sits on, and then pushed up into the lube\sizing die, in the webshot. Just don't use the included liquid Alox.

To crimp the check, you have to run it thru a sizer. A push thru sizer for your reloading press is faster than a lubrisizer. Lee makes one, the concept is good, can't vouch for the quality.

I commonly use a home made push-thru for sizing and for crimping the check, then use a lubrisizer to apply lube.

I've not found the need but ....
Could some sort of a depth gauge be cobbled up to limit the depth of the bullet going into the die? That way you could push the bullet say 1/4 inch into the die to crimp the check.
Jim

The RCBS Luber-Sizer can be used to crimp gas-checks without sizing all of the bullet.
You might have to size a small portion of the bullet in order to get a full crimp on the gas-check!

Just start the bullet into the die and then back it out, as arkypete stated in his reply!

Jim,

There's a tool that you put under the sizing die on the Lyman/RCBS type luber/sizers to sort of jam the plunger rod from moving in the sizer die, thus you can seat your checks without the bullet going down inside the die.

Joe

Joe
Thanks.
I've gotten all of my sizer dies custom lapped/honed to the diameter I need. This way the need to crimp on a check, only, for me is not needed.
Jim

The reason for my post is that I do not have a sizer, and am just starting to get ready to begin casting bullets for my 45-70. I was wondering that if I decide to use a gas checked bullet, but there is no need to size the bullets due to a mold producing a bullet of the correct diameter if I would still need to purchase a sizer anyhow just to crimp the gas check or if there was another way.

If the velocities are held at 1,200 to 1,500 a plain based bullet with proper lube will work.
The first rifle bullet I cast was a 405 plain base, I think, Lyman.
If you shoot the bullet as cast, pan lube you'll be OK.
Jim

trekker111, ah, now I'm starting to understand your question. In your particular case, you should be able to get away with not crimping the checks. Just push them on with thumb pressure and hope they stay on.

The reason this will work for the 45/70 is that the Hornady 45 gas check is actually a 45 pistol check, and as such it is a little small in the OD for 0.458" rifle bullets. Its OD is only 0.458" - 0.459". Therefore, even if you sized the checked bullet, the die would barely touch the gas check.

For most other calibers the 0D is 0.008 - 0.010" larger than the nominal bullet diameter. For example, a 30 caliber check might be 0.318" OD. If you tried seating a 30 caliber bullet with an unsized check, you might run into several problems. The oversize check might be difficult to start in the case neck. The oversize check might expand the case neck as it is seated, so that the case neck no longer grips the rest of the bullet tightly. And then the finished round might have a bulge in the neck over the check, which might make the round difficult to chamber.

But for the 45/70, you can probably get away with it.

As popenmann stated about the gas check basically being bigger then the bullet is another reason why a lot of cast reloader anneal their gas checks. Even if you size them in a sizer that sizes them down to the same diameter as th bullet, an unannealed gas check has more spring back then the bullet alloy. Measure your gas checks that are on sized bullets and then measure just the bullet and see what you get. I bet the check is bigger.

Joe

Popenmann, If that is possible then it should work since I would be using a slightly compressed powder charge so the powder will hold it in place till chamber pressure forms it to the bore.

arkypete, unfortunatly I plan on shooting them at higher velocities, closer to 1800 or 1900, maybe even 2000 after I decide on a bullet weight. Basically near maximum velocity for my 18" guide gun barrel. My current jacketed bullet load is a 400gr fnsp over 50gr H4198 which is slightly compressed.

My plan eventually is to get a chrono and decrease my powder charge until the velocity starts to drop then bump the charge back up a little. Currently in low light I have a 2 foot long muzzle flash so I assume I'm just wasting powder. I was thinking of going with the gas check to reduce the likelyhood of leading at the higher velocities.

Would casting from wheel weights affect the velocity levels at which leading may become prevelent? As opposed to softer alloys.

When I slugged the bore last night, and having scoped the bore, the bore seemed smooth compared to some of my other rifles. When people talk about leading with cast bullets, how many rounds down range are they talking about before it becomes a problem? If I can fire , lets say, 40 rounds between cleanings and be fine regardless of leading then I may not bother with gas checks at all. If I run into a situation were I'll be firing more than 40 rounds through a single rifle I'm going for something with lighter recoiling, preferably fed by detachable magazines.

quote:

My plan eventually is to get a chrono and decrease my powder charge until the velocity starts to drop then bump the charge back up a little. Currently in low light I have a 2 foot long muzzle flash so I assume I'm just wasting powder. I was thinking of going with the gas check to reduce the likelyhood of leading at the higher velocities.

If you do get a chrono you had better make sure you put some protection in front of the chronograph (that is if you get the type that you shoot over) because if you're not crimping those checks on, you stand a pretty good chance of putting a check through your chrono. Don't doubt for one second it won't go through it either. Other's have had this happen.

I don't think you are going to put your bullet as fast as you're talking with a non checked bullet. I believe you will get gas cutting.

There are so many variables involved in leading that I can't see how any of us could estimate the number of rounds down your barrel before leading. I think, though, that if you try to push an unchecked bullet as fast as you stated, that leading will show up fast.

Joe

Order a custom .459 or .460 lube/size die kit from Lee and if the bullet casts under only the check will be sized and if over the bullet will be sized down to fit. I just checked and they make the custom sizes for 29 bucks including shipping. You could order the standard .457 die but for the price of the die, shipping, and work you'll have to do to open it it isn't worth the effort. You'll probably have to pan lube afterwards if you don't have a sizer but it's no big deal.

In my opinion and a lot of others sizing a bullet using a push through die is the best way to do it anyway.

Pat

Pat I., actually a 459 - 460 die will not size a Hornady 45 pistol check. That's why it doesn't really matter whether he sizes it or not.

trekker111, the check will get crimped when it is engraved by the rifling, so your only concern is that it stays on while handling the bullet at the bench.

Good luck and good hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by popenmann:
Pat I., actually a 459 - 460 die will not size a Hornady 45 pistol check. That's why it doesn't really matter whether he sizes it or not.

My mistake and thanks for pointing it out. I guess your way makes the most sense and best of all it's free except for the checks.

Pat

Depending on the caliber you're loading, you may be able to use a Lee Factory Crimp Die for a caliber with a case neck similar in diameter to the bullet you're crimping the check on. Seat the check on the bullet shank, hold the bullet in the top of the die so the collet jaws just cover the top of the check and run the ram up. Start with the die barely touching the ram and adjust it while checking with a micrometer till you just get it crimped to the unsized bullet diameter.