How well does the Marlin 1895G guide gun (18.5" barrel) shoot "lead" bullets with the ballard type rifling ?(6 grooves)

Very well. Just get the bullets .001-.002" over bore size.

I shoot lead bullets in my pre micro groove 22" Marlin 45-70. Had leading if I went above 1400 fps. Maybe newer lubes out to fix this, but I went to paper patched, and shoot 405 gr to 1850 fps, no problem. Don't shoot it a lot, just deer season, and sighting in now. Will shoot 1 1/2" three shot groups with the 2 1/2x scope at 100, with paper patched. I size the 20-1 mix cast bullets in a .451 ACP die, and use thin rag typing paper dampened to roll on the bullet. I lube the patch with Lee liquid alox-water proof, and wears better in and out of the gun in deer season. 10x in and out of the mag+ 1x out of the barrel=end of deer season.

my stainless steele guide gun shoots wery well with both cast and jacked bullets... no problem making 1" and 1,5" groups at 100 meters... iron sighted...

i stick to 400 grain bullets, because i feel that is the best compromise between ballistics and energi...

because of the stiff recoil, i use a Lee fact. crimp die...

Hglass, soon you will retire those funny coated bullets like the rest of us and start hunting lead.

I don't think there's a pre-Microgroove 22" Marlin .45-70. When they introduced the "new" 1895 Marlin back about 1972-73, they had Microgroove barrels. I've got one of those. The magazines kept repeating that dimbulb stuff that I first saw in Lyman's loading manual about how "rifles with multi- or shallow-groove rifling don't shoot lead bullets well, and the velocity must be kept down for good accuracy," and Marlin soon switched to the deeper cut "Ballard" rifling.

FWIW, the Microgroove barrel shoots cast bullets just fine.

That micro groove barrels won't shoot cast is an old wives tale repeated far to often.

Size .0015" to .002" over sluged bore diameter and match alloy BHN to the load. My Marlins shoot very well and have no idea what a condom bullet is.

Rick

quote:

Originally posted by Ricochet:
I don't think there's a pre-Microgroove 22" Marlin .45-70. When they introduced the "new" 1895 Marlin back about 1972-73, they had Microgroove barrels. I've got one of those. The magazines kept repeating that dimbulb stuff that I first saw in Lyman's loading manual about how "rifles with multi- or shallow-groove rifling don't shoot lead bullets well, and the velocity must be kept down for good accuracy," and Marlin soon switched to the deeper cut "Ballard" rifling.

FWIW, the Microgroove barrel shoots cast bullets just fine.

I too have heard about the early "non Microgroove" 1895 Marlin 45-70's. I have an early (B011xxx) that does NOT have the words Microgroove any where on it BUT the bbl has 12 "grooves". Is that the accepted "Microgroove" for 45 cal. as the new "Ballard" type has 6? I don't know but I would think they'd get a lot more than 12 in a .45 hole since the .30 has 12, and the .22 has 16. Has anybody asked Marlin?
Any way I love my 45-70 and intend to get one of the new XLR's when prices come down.
4570Forever

They shoot cast great! However my old micro grooved Marlins also shot good with cast of the right diameter. I truly believe that those that claimed the micro grooved would not shoot cast, were just armchair theorist, and have never actually tried it. Could be wrong, but that's just my experience with them. Hmm, come to think of it though, I never could get better than 1" at 100 yards with the micro grooves. . . . . .

Hey guys, the micro groove is better then what Marlin calls Ballard.
I just spent 3 days slugging and measuring my .44 with Ballard rifling.
Micro groove has .003" deep rifling and the Ballard has .00325"! It should have been .006".
The more grooves and lands on the micro groove will actually give more grip to the boolit then the stupid thing they say was made for cast.
They are using the same bore reamers for both before rifling. If you measure the bore on both you will see they are the same.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Hey guys, the micro groove is better then what Marlin calls Ballard.
I just spent 3 days slugging and measuring my .44 with Ballard rifling.
Micro groove has .003" deep rifling and the Ballard has .00325"! It should have been .006".
The more grooves and lands on the micro groove will actually give more grip to the boolit then the stupid thing they say was made for cast.
They are using the same bore reamers for both before rifling. If you measure the bore on both you will see they are the same.

What are you talking about it should have been .006 deep on the ballard rifling? That means from groove to groove then the total dept would be .012. If that were the case what do you expect the bore to be? Take the 308 for example. The bore should be .300 and in the old days of cut rifling the grooves were usually .004 giving a total of .008 from groove to groove, thus the .308. Today we find button rifling much shallower.

Joe, .004" works fine and is really what you want for jacketed. It is great for cast in most guns too but Marlin said they made the Ballard deeper for cast boolits when in fact they didn't do anything but reduce the number of lands and grooves.
If you measure a Ruger .44 you will find the rifling is .006" deep. It would not hurt a thing for the Marlin .44 to be that deep.
Anywhere from .004" to .006" would be ideal but to continue to make them .003" and then tell us they were made for cast was only a selling point and not based in fact.
.001" is a LOT when you want boolit grip. More is even better.
You have to also consider that Marlin barrels are also too large with groove to groove sizes that are hard to find boolits for. Mine is .4313 at it's largest point. Thats larger then Rugers! The right boolit has to be .433" to .434" for the Marlin. It is hard to find a mold over .430". Yes, it would be great at .429" with .004" rifling. Then it would shoot anything you cared to stuff in it.
I still would like one at .006" just for cast boolits. Get rid of the 1 in 38 twist so the deeper rifling can be taken advantage of.
After all, a good traditional muzzle loader has .010" deep rifling and it never hurt them.
I have letters from Marlin and found out some pencil neck at a desk figured out the twist rate and rifling depth.
But I would also be happy with .004", it would make a HUGE difference.

Ok fellas, what rifle was and still is the most accurate one ever made that is cheap? Not even thinking about BR stuff here, just a run of the mill gun.
The 6.5 Swede of course.
I just slugged the bore on mine and guess what? The rifling is .0065" deep! Given the extreme fast rate of twist, it looks like the Swede's knew what they were doing. Guys also have great accuracy with cast from them too.
Even most old 45-70 rifles will have .0045" to .005" deep rifling.
Sorry Joe but I have no more rifles to measure since I sold the rest off because I hunt with revolvers.
A little deeper rifling won't hurt a thing. It is when it is too shallow for lead that you will have trouble.
Shooting most .44 boolits from most molds of about .430" in the Marlin just turns it into a smoothbore. Boolits skid if soft and do not obturate enough, even then they can skid if they expand. Hard boolits too small will skid. Everyone says you need way over size boolits. I agree but what does the guy do that does not have a custom mold? Look at the millions of Marlins sold and the small number of you here that can make them shoot! That means 99.99% of Marlin owners have to shoot jacketed bullets.

quote:

Everyone says you need way over size boolits. I agree but what does the guy do that does not have a custom mold? Look at the millions of Marlins sold and the small number of you here that can make them shoot! That means 99.99% of Marlin owners have to shoot jacketed bullets.

What does one do? Why he "Beagles" the boolits of course.
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:

quote:

Everyone says you need way over size boolits. I agree but what does the guy do that does not have a custom mold? Look at the millions of Marlins sold and the small number of you here that can make them shoot! That means 99.99% of Marlin owners have to shoot jacketed bullets.

What does one do? Why he "Beagles" the boolits of course.
Paul B.

Well, if you have a luber/sizer you can put a bigger diameter sizing die in it and having the correct nose punch, you CAN bump them up some in side the die. Having any machining abilities and a lathe, you can make yourself a die to swage them up. This is best done with the bullet sized and lubed, that ways you don't lose the size of your lube grooves. In other words unlubed the bullet alloy will flow into the groove making it smaller. Also it's possible, depending on you alloy, of the bullet bumping up to fill the grooves right in the bore itself.

bfrshooter,

I kind of disagree with you. I have many shallow groove rifles that are button rifled that shoot cast groups that will blow your mind. Ask 45 2.1 on your castboolit forum if I'm lying. One of them is a 6.5 Grendel.

It is still a combination of an oversize bore, shallow rifling and the sizes of most boolits. I don't like to Beagle so I am making several molds to try.
Joe, I bet those guns you have do not have oversize bores!
One should not have to go to extraordinary extremes to get a rifle to shoot accurate.
They made the .41 with a 1 in 20 twist and have bowed to pressure for the .444 change but they are stubborn about the .44. The 1 in 38 would do better with a round ball.
I can't defend Marlin no matter how some of you get them to shoot. The barrel is a pain in the butt.
The worst thing is that I love the rifle, it's feel and how it carries.
The .44 rifles I hate are the Rugers, they are downright ugly. But they are accurate and it takes no work to make them so. I have shot 330 gr boolits from them with super accuracy. Problem is you have to shoot single shot because of the stupid short magazine that nothing handloaded fits unless you use light boolits or jacketed.
Seems as if every gun maker has some bad points and will not correct any of them.
Tooling costs money but it seems to me that if more guns were sold because they are perfect, it would increase profits.
Then again, most are hunters, shoot a few shots a year and don't handload. This is the market.
There is not a single one of you here that would not like to see a better barrel on the Marlin. Why don't we pressure them?

My CZ550 30-06 is oversized. I was kind of disappointed when I first got it and found it's groove to be .309 after slugging it. Was pleasantly surprised how darn good it shot both jacketed and cast. It's not the only one I have oversized that shoots well. I don't beagle any of my moulds.

quote:

I don't like to Beagle so I am making several molds to try.

Well, to be perfectly honest, although I do beagle molds that need it, I don't really like doing it. Gues it falls under the "Necessity it the mother of invention." syndrome. For example, I have a Lyman #457191 mould, a 300 gr. bullet for the 45-60 and 45-90. Mine is rather early, but a friend also has one made many years later. IIRC, he bought it sometime in the mid 1970s directly from Lyman. Both moulds will not cast a boolit any larger in diameter than .457" regardless of the alloy tried. In order to get a boolit to size out at .459" the mold must be Beagled. Works just fine. In another example, i found a Lyman #3589 mould languishing at a local gun shot for $25. naturally, I snapped it up like a hungry Great White Shark snaps up seals. Hurrying home and firing up the pot, I learned to my dismay that while the boolit's outside diameters were about perfect, the portion that the gas check crimped on was way too small. The only way to get a check to stay on was to epoxy it in place, which I considered a lousy fix. I beagled one side of the mold which made the check site big enough to crimp on and sizing the boolit to .360" takes care of the slight out of roundness caused by beagling.
Beagling saved those two mold from lying useless in my mould chest.
It is not a perect solution, but it does have it's uses.
Paul B.

I know Beagling works and have done it a few times. I just hate the extra steps. I was sent some test boolits without checks and found they would not stay on. I figured out how to use the Lee factory crimp die to crimp the top edge of the check. That worked like a charm. He eventually reamed the back of the mold for a perfect fit.
I know what you are saying about most 45-70 molds that throw .457 boolits. My Browning won't shoot until I get to .460 and I made a mold that makes a .464 boolit and it shoots the best. I made a mistake on the bore ride part of the nose and need a stick to chamber them. It came out .001" too large. I use a Lee size die to size the nose and it works great.
I am hoping the .44 mold I am making will give me a .434" boolit.

My Browning 1886 is tighter then that. I don't need .460

Joe, groove to groove on my BPCR is .4593 and I am fitting the boolit and case to the chamber size instead of the bore now. .464" leaves expansion room for the brass. It shoots very good now.
.457 boolits just go where they want to.

Yeah, I lucked out on my rifle. Shoots the 405 RCBS like no tomorrow.

Like Butter and Jam. Tom.

Okay,I give up. I don't know anything about cast bullets, so can't figure it out on my own. Just what in Heaven's name is a "beagled" bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Okay,I give up. I don't know anything about cast bullets, so can't figure it out on my own. Just what in Heaven's name is a "beagled" bullet?

"Beagling" is the application of aluminum tape to the blocks to increase the effective diameter. The resultant bullets are slightly egg shaped, but the sizer or the barrel will squeeze them back to round. It's easier than lapping a mould and reversable.