i was just talking with Veral, he made me a mould for my 416 ruger the mould spits out 400 gn GC proj

as they drop out of the mould the hardness is 12 BNH....i asked veral what velocity could i run these bullets at.....what he told me kind of threw me ...he said if the bullet size is correct ,GC, good lube and the barrel is good i should be able to get 2400 with a slow burning powder like 4350 with no leading..............my understading was that to get a cast proj to that vel you need to heat treat it to increase the strength of the alloy...any comments

Daniel

Leading is a tricky business as there are so many things that can cause leading and bullet hardness is but one factor, of many.

Assuming a properly sized bullet with a quality lube, the two factors you need to be concerned with are gas cutting at the base of the bullet and the bullet shearing from the force of the rifling engraving the bullet.

The Gas check serves two purposes and fortunately both of those help the two factors mentioned above. The base is protected from gas cutting and as Veral states the gas check acts as a socket that helps prevent the rifling from shearing the bullet.

I've shot bullets cast from air cooled ww's bhn ~13 2200 fps from my 350 rigby with moa accuracy. I never tried to push them 2400 fps and consider getting good accuracy at that velocity to require some tweaking, but it is feasible and hardened bullets aren't are hard and fast rule to get their.

The one thing to consider is the twist rate of your barrel, the faster the twist the greater the shear force on the bullet. My 350 Rigby had a 1-14 barrel which is IMHO a fairly friendly twist rate for cast and higher velocities.

PAUL
thanks...when I got the mould made, I had the throat and barrel slugged, so the mould was made according to those specs...my 416 ruger has got a obermyer 1.12 twist and with 400 gn woodleighs its a varmint rifle !!!!!...but loading shooting cast bullets is a new thing so im just sorting things out

Daniel

My 416 Taylor shoots cast that I bought from either MTB or Beartooth @ 1800 fps into bullet touching groups w/ H4831.
I never have tried to get more fps.
I would work up loads in the normal manner and see what your rifle will do. Cast are fun.
Good luck.

TK
I used H4831 in my 416 satterlee Ruger, and there was a lot of unburnt powder....i will work through the powders and just see what groups i get

Daniel

Did you crimp your loads ?
Marshall Stanton at either BTB or MTB instructed me to 'fill up the case w/ H4831 to where the neck meets the shoulder. Do NOT seat the bullet deeper than where the case neck meets the shoulder'.
Well, that was a bit too non-specific for my reloading style. So, I worked up loads weighing each charge until I obtained a weight that filled the case to the shoulder /neck junction. Seated the bullet so it did not protrude into the case, crimped them and went to the range.
1790fps over the speed gun. All (3) shots touching at 100 yds.
Good luck and Merry Christmas !

TK
I don't crimp my cast bullets
I had my mould made by veral to fit my chamber barrel, and yes the base of the bullet/GC is tucked in just above the shoulder neck junction....
what hardness are your bullets
Daniel

22 BHN, I believe.
I would try crimping. Might help. Similar to larger pistol cartridges shooting cast. Supposedly better/more even/more uniform/consistent powder burn rate.

TK
thanks
i will see what the accuracey is like, but yes i agree with you, crimping will make things more consistent...in my case i dont have a grove handy for crimping
tell me with your cast bullets do you have them hard against the lands or do you seat them back a bit...if i seated my bullet a bit deeper 80 thou i could crimp, but then the GC would be below the neck junction
the mould veral made me was one that spits out bore riding bullets, he had no choice as i insited on a traditional 400 gn proj for the 416
today i was shooting those 400 gn s with 2205, which is your eqivalent of H110....STARTED WITH 20 GNS with a vel of 1140 fps AND ENDED AT 30 GNS with a vel of 1490....will shoot them for accuracy next and see what happens

Daniel

Not sure a/b H110 in a large rifle case ? It is used primarily for large 357+ pistol cartridges loaded for max( magnum) loads.
I would try crimping and use a slower rifle powder. Just keep the powder level in the case below the base of the seated bullet.
Do you have a Lyman manual that list modern jacketed bullet loads and some cast loads for the same cartridge ?

I looked at my Lyman #49 manual for you tonite. It does not list cast bullets in any of the 416s. Sorry.
Your countryman on these forums that had a 404J for sale did a lot of work w/ cast, Von Gruff. He used H4350 if I remember correctly.
Hornady list (11) powders for the 416 Ruger/400g (jacketed bullets). Starting load for each gives 2000fps.

TK
I think I can get my hands on the lyman manual......today I shot my load of 30 gn s of 2205/H110 at 35/40 yards, and got a really great group it had a horizontal spread of 1.75 inches and a vertical spread of under an inch....I pulled one shot which I called, and there were 4 shots in an inch, and that was shooting off a bag lying on the ground with a 4x scope.....hate to see what it will shoot like of the bench with a 10x scope and proper handloads....in the coming weeks I will try varget/4350/4831 , and see what the accuracy will be like between 2000-2400

Daniel

quote:

Originally posted by M 98:
i was just talking with Veral, he made me a mould for my 416 ruger the mould spits out 400 gn GC proc
as they drop out of the mould the hardness is 12 BNH....i asked veral what velocity could i run these bullets at.....what he told me kind of threw me ...he said if the bullet size is correct ,GC, good lube and the barrel is good i should be able to get 2400 with a slow burning powder like 4350 with no leading..............my understading was that to get a cast proj to that vel you need to heat treat it to increase the strength of the alloy...any comments

Daniel

Veral knows what he is talking about has been my experience. The LBT blue lube is what I use and highly recommend it as well.

Hi M98,
Thought I would give you my experiences using a Cast LBT in my 375 H&H Mag.
Like you I measured the barrel and throat and purchased 2 molds that cast 1 thou bigger than my groove dia.
I use recovered lead from a pistol range, mostly it's commercial lead, and I shoot it as cast at 14 Brn and also water quench it at 23 Brn.
At both hardness I get no leading!!! But they perform differently on game, such as Camels, Horses and Donkey's. I prefer the 14 Brn as the expansion is better on Donkeys, and switch to the 23 Brn when after Horse's and Camels as they give better penetration.
The light proj is a 270 LFN which I've shot at 2605 fps with no leading, I have dropped that load back to 2450fps and have shot many rapid fire sessions without leading, This proj has the GC sitting just inside the base of the neck.
The heavy proj is a 320gn LWFN, this proj hangs down in the powder and has been run as fast as 2420 fps with no leading, The load I settled on is 2240 fps and again I have fired this many times in rapid fire with no leading, the highest round count before cleaning is above 80, and the rifle showed no leading, I cleaned it because it was to be transported for 2 days in a bag.
All the above has been confirmed with a Chronograph and a borescope.
I purchased Veral's book, it's got excellent info.

By way of comparison I've used the Hornady 300 RN and 300 SPBT, and the 300 TSX Barnes.
The Barnes is great, especiall on the bigger stuff, I wouldn't waste your time with the others mentioned as I think they are rubbish.
The cast as I make and use them are almost as good as the Barnes, but don't shoot as flat, they are way better than the Hornady's.

XRINGS
in the comming weeks im going to test some of those 400 gn cast bullets and see how they expand, in news print and 5 L dialysis bags.....my bullets are the nose riding bullets which veral hates , but because i insisted on a 400 gn proj he was forced to go this way. i just got an e mail from veral saying that if useing his lube you do not have to clean your barrel, he has got a rifle which he has not cleaned the barrel on for 15 years, and it shoots really well
my next project will be to get veral to make me a 300 gn 375 mould for my 375 RUGER....again it will be a 300 gn nose riding bullet designed with the GC seated just inside the junction of the case shoulder/neck.
then i will get a 30 cal mould made, but not sure which way i will go with that

tell me what powder/powder charge are you useing with your 270 gn /375 casts

with my 416 im useing 30 gns of 2205 for a vel of 1500 fps....real fun load, im not sure what powder i will use for the full power load 2000-2400.....probably 2209, but as usual will start with 2208/2209/2213, but that will come in the comming mounths after i finalise my light load...

By the way VERAL has been a real gentle man.....always happy to help, and has given me plenty of good pointers with little hiccups i have come across casting....cant say enough good about him

As far as the hornady 300 gn proj go, i bought a batch of 300 gn spbt ...about 3000 of them but have never used them, so cant say... i hear that they are very soft and break up.....i have also got a stash of north fork 300 gn softs, have never used any of them yet, two boxes of the 300 tsx which i will probably never use as im not a fan of barnes bullets, just last mounth i got about 1350 nosler partitions 300gn /375 from the pro shop so that should keep me happy for a while , as im a partition user from a long way back

Daniel

I use 2206H, if you have a look at the Hogdons web site it is listed as H4895 same powder,
If you use their starting load data for the same weight proj as the cast you intend to use and work up.
I use poly wads, it is easy to punch them from sheets left in discarded packaging, and now you can buy it in a round tube from clark rubber, works a treat, just cut it with scissors

X RING
thanks for that
also sent you a pm a while back

Daniel

With the cast bullets, you should e-mail Western Powders and ask them about AA5744 loads, they probably have some. Been using it in the 450-400NE 3" and worked a 400gr to 1880 so far, got a 320 to 2050 no problems. The 320 is Veral's WFN-GC, the 400 is an LFN-GC.
I didn't finish up the 400gr load so far, the 320 worked really well for me, and is a little easier on the constitution with the Ruger #1. I was using water dropped wheelweights. Next step will be trying powder coating on the 320's to see how that works instead of the blue lube.

Hi M98,

Thought I'd send you some interesting info.

I've just returned from shooting in the North West, Camels, horses, donkeys and dogs. Most were shot using my 375 H&H with cast.

The 320 LBT was emphatic on camels, this year I was using the water quenched lead at 23 BHN and LBT Blue lube, these were creating massive wound channels and deep penetration.

In contrast I also shot quite a few with the 300 Barnes TSX, again these are very good projectiles and gave many pass throughs on broadside donkeys, the cast would sometimes pass through.
Both resulted in a quick death.

The TSX's never managed an end to end pass through no matter the distance from the animal.

My observations after shooting this year are that inside 200yds I can't see any advantage in using TSX's at $1.95ea over my cast at $0.06ea.

As range goes out the lead is slightly behind in the trajectory to the TSX's.

I also took along a 303 British on a Ruger No1, This rifle has proven to be difficult to get to shoot using an LBT LFN, tried the projectile in 3 rifles and none of them would shoot it point on.
I've tried other molds for this rifle and none of them gave very good accuracy, but they all flew point first.
The only lead bullet so far that shoots well is an undersize bore ride Lyman for a 308 cal, go figure, as it doesn't fit the bore or the groove diameter, yet shoots fantastic.

Veral has made me a bore ride design that I'm yet to test.
There is nothing wrong with bore rides, the same things apply the bullet has the best chance of working if it fits the barrel and throat, use a good lube (LBT Blue is), don't be concerned if the projectile hangs down in the powder, mine does and there have been no problems.
I don't crimp because it's a single shot, so no need.

Some other interesting info.
Most say don't shoot lead through a copper fouled barrel, but unless there is so much copper that the barrel dimensions are altered, then I've seen no detriment.
On this last trip I fired around 20 cast, and for no particular reason decided to use some TSX's, I fired 46 of these and then swapped back to my lead for another 40 rounds.
The barrel never got cleaned during this trip, when I got home I checked and there was no leading, accuracy was as usual, the copper fouling required sweets to get it out, but it always does in my rifle.

HI X RING
thanks for the update, intresting results with your cast bullets
I just got back from NE Victoria....saw a truck load of sambar 60-70, and shot a stag with the 06, never got a chance to shoot one with the 416 and cast bullets this trip, thou I shot a hind with the 416 and 400 gn cast bullet a few weeks ago .
I did a lot of testing with my 400 gn 416 LBT bullet, , but got a lot of leading once I went over 1500v fps I tried 2206 and 2208 and the leading was really bad, but that was with bullets that were 12 BNH
I had a batch of bullets that were 20 bnh and ran them at 2000 fps and within a few shots the barrel was a grey /siver colour
I guess im going to cast some bullets next and get them up to 30 BNH and see if the leading accurs once I get them up to 2000 fps

Any way sent you a PM

Daniel

quote:

Originally posted by M 98:
HI X RING
thanks for the update, intresting results with your cast bullets
I just got back from NE Victoria....saw a truck load of sambar 60-70, and shot a stag with the 06, never got a chance to shoot one with the 416 and cast bullets this trip, thou I shot a hind with the 416 and 400 gn cast bullet a few weeks ago .
I did a lot of testing with my 400 gn 416 LBT bullet, , but got a lot of leading once I went over 1500v fps I tried 2206 and 2208 and the leading was really bad, but that was with bullets that were 12 BNH
I had a batch of bullets that were 20 bnh and ran them at 2000 fps and within a few shots the barrel was a grey /siver colour
I guess im going to cast some bullets next and get them up to 30 BNH and see if the leading accurs once I get them up to 2000 fps

Any way sent you a PM

Daniel

I've told my lead problem in the bore is from too hard metal (wheel weight) and not velocity. Next shooting season I will cast 50-50 pure lead and wheel weights and see what happens and shoot slower, too.
Cal

I have Lyman's Cast Bullet book #4. It has the 416 Ruger listed. It has just one cast bullet listed, RCBS#416-350-FN.
With 5744 starting load of 42.3 grs at 1981 FPS up to 47 grs at 2161'
Top velocity load was with IMR4064, start at 60.3 grs at 1996, max at 67grs for 2259.
They list other powders too. Get very similar velocities as the IMR4064.
I know this bullet weighs less than your 400 gr but this gives you a starting point. Back off from the starting loads a gr or two and work up.
Leo

Lots of great info in this thread. I've been thinking about trying some cast bullets in my 375 Whelan A.I and my 458 Winchester rifles. Along with my handguns. I still dont have the slugging the bores figured out but hopefully will soon.
Im thinking to use a 270 gr in the 375 and a 400-450 gr in the 458.
Ive learned quite a bit in this thread . Thanks
Glen.

I've been driving lots of guys crazy lately with questions about meplat diameters . I emailed Mr Smith and he very kindly straightened me out. He told me what the members here had, . But he explained , Why it is the way it is. Very nice guy. I'll be ordering several molds from him.

CTF
VERAL is a top guy...so helpful...he is making me two molds at present
with your metlap make it .125 smaller then bullet diam that applies to all cal...I suggest you don't lube your bullets, just use HI TEK COATING its the best of the best...nothing comes close to it....where lubed bullets will foul/lead the barrel within two or three shots, bullets coated with HI TEK COATING will not lead...I fired 20 shots with hi tek coating @2150 with no leading ....and the bullets were from the same batch with a BNH of 15
if you want a second opinion, e mail mike from MONTANA BULLETS, I put him onto the hi tek coating....pointed him in the right direction on how to apply it ....he e mailed me back saying his son put a full clip through his 38 super as fast as he could and there was no leading...his comment was no lube will come close to bullets being coated with hi tek...im not sure if he had a 15 or 30 shot clip



if your going to order from veral order bullet design with no lube grooves...there shorter and just use hi tek
I designed a few of my own bullets with no lube grooves for my 200 GN/06 300 GN/ 375 RUGER and 400 GN/416 RUGER there on Toms accuratemolds catalogue site if you want to have a look

Daniel

Veral is a great guy.His lube is top of the line. I bought a case full from his wife when he was inside because he a problem with taxation.We'll leave it there.

Danials, thanks for the heads up. I've wondered if cast bullets tumbled in Hexagonal Boron Nitride would work well.
I tumble all my mono metal and jacketed bullets in HBN and Really like the stuff. Much better than moly.
I'll check out the Hi Tec coatings.
Glen.

CTF
what does the HBN stuff do....i have never heard of it
The hi tek coating is an Australian invention its made here locally and the coating is really tough, and so far i can not fault it
Daniel

Hexagonal Boron Nitride powder is a tumble on bullet coating . Like molybdenum dysulfied powder. But very different. It works super for reducing friction. However, it withstands much higher heat than moly .
In my rifles , it works the best for keeping the cold bore shot in the center of the group. Which is real nice ! If a rifle is a good grouper but the cold bore shot is always outside of the warm barrel group. Big game , close range. It's never an issue. But, I've had some rifles that three the cold bore shot 1.5" out at 100 . If the freezer shot is at 400 y/m . That ain't good.
My 6.5 Creedmoor is a good shooter with naked bullets. It's a Great shooter with HBN tumbled bullets . And the cold bore shot is always inside the group.