I had some luck, opening day of deer season, yesterday. Not the nice fat yearling I was hoping for, but about a 150-175lb. boar. He was shot at about 40yd with the RCBS 30-150-FN, of air-cooled WW, running about 1800fps instrumental.
View images at: Bullet Pics
(I tried to load the individual pics, but they wouldn't come up)
The hog was standing in some Johnson grass, and I couldn't see him too clearly. he was standing, facing me, head down. The bullet went through the spine at the shoulder junction, traveled under the backbone, hit the spine again in front of the hips, then deflected, and lodged in the flank, just under the hide. Total penetration was about 2 1/2 feet of hog.
Retained weight was 88.4gr, for 59%. The nose was expanded to about .412". The bullet was shortened (abraded?) to .405" (originally was .663").
Now I don't consider this a bullet failure of any kind. But, the hog required a finishing shot, due to the fact that no major internal organs were damaged. He wasn't going anywhere, and the shot placement was my mistake. I thought I was going to bust him between the eyes, but shot high.
Is there anything you guys would change, about the bullet,velocity, etc? i.e., harder bullet, more velocity, etc. I'm totally happy with the way this load performed, but want some input from the more experienced members here. Maybe some similar experiences?, and what your results were? >>>>>>Bug.

[ 11-02-2003, 18:08: Message edited by: Bug ]

Bug--

Meat in the freezer is a hard result to find fault with. CONGRATS, SIR!

2.5 FEET of penetration is also a tough subject to counter. I don't think I've ever taken a "perfect" shot at a game animal, or experienced "perfect" ad copy bullet performance from any bullet. Cast bullets usually careen off downrange after passing through critters--and the fact that someone has an animal to extract a fired slug from is kind of indicative of success. We all want our critters to collapse at the sound of the shot--and more often than not they are harvested with minimal activity after the bullet strikes. Fact is--and this goes for self-defense shooting too--there are no performance guarantees, and with that in mind I usually use a bit more caliber and bit more bullet than what is considered "minimum" for the game animal being taken. This waz part of my rationale for the 9.3 x 62/CZ-550 for cast bullet hunting--full bore jacketed loads for nasty critters, cast bullets for deer at moderate velocities.

Considering the amount of penetration, I believe you had great weight retention. Alloy looks good, with desired mushrooming shown. Looks like everything is working right, as is.
It ain't broke. Don't try to fix it until it is, like the government does!

Your load is almost identical to the very first one I used on deer, maybe 10 years ago.

My 30-30 load used a Lee 150 FN of air cooled WW's over 26 grains of 4895 and was shot out of a 788 Remington, velocity around 1750. Range was short, maybe 50 yards. The bullet hit about 2 inches right of the doe's A hole, went through hip joint, clipped off 3 ribs, punctured the liver, right lung, went through the sternum/right shoudler joint and stopped just under the hide. Bullet looked like a Coreloct advertisement! Now, I figure that was a little over 3 feet of penetration and while a deer pales in comparison to a hog for toughness, that was still a lot of penetration. Yet, the doe trotted off another 75 yards before she wobbled and flopped over. The internal damage was there, just no hi-speed shock to cause the class ic 'Bam-Flop' as I call it (Bam goes the gun, flop goes the critter).

This experience stilled any notions I had that a slow cast bullet might not 'work'. Since that time, I have killed lots of animals with cast bullets...most of them deer, and have been perfectly happy with the results.

First and foremost, a hunter utilizing cast bullets must for the most part, forget the paralyzing effects of a high velocity jacketed bullet. Just ain't going to happen unless you hit the head or spine. This calls to mind a buck I once shot with a .45 muzzle loader at a genuine 120 paces. I wasn't aiming at it's head, but that's where I hit it! Same effect of an '06 at that range. But that is the exception rather than the rule of normal game engagement.

I shot a buck 2 seasons back with my Marlin 45-70 loaded with a pure lead 405 RCBS flatnose. Bullet departed at a sedate 1500 fps or so (41.5 grains Re7). The bullet hit a 3" beech sapling before it hit the deer. Deer ran about 75 yards before it piled up, stone dead. That soft bullet was about .75 or 80 caliber went it hit the deer as the beech tree consumed most of the energy. There a fist sized hole in the deer and the entry was covered with lead metal-flakes and no bullet was ever found.

Point is; speed isn't paramount for penetration, the bigger the bore, the softer the slug for thin skinned critters (for max. expansion) and don't expect things to happen like when using jacketed bullets at high speeds. Take a good shot, be confident in the results...even if the critter runs off, you'll fill your tag.

You will actually experience the results hunters did 100-110 years ago. That is one reason why the 30-30 using smokeless powder and jacketed bullets amazed folks way back when it first hit the market. Instant killing power seemed to ratchet up 10x when compared to the old BP rounds.

Nothing wrong with your load, in fact I feel you have reached Nirvana....leave it alone!

Can't argue with success! Congratulations!

Looks like good performance to me!

BTW, on that comparison of the high velocity modern rounds to the old black powder ones, I'm not sure it holds water. I recall marvelling at a freshly killed deer hung up in a barn with a gaping hole in its sternum that its heart was pretty much hanging out of, from a 180 gr. .308. That deer ran a long way after the shot, I was told. Can't remember where I saw it, but not too long ago I saw a reprint of an article from an old Maine hunting magazine of a review of the new .30-06 in an 1895 Winchester rifle. The author said it "seemed to kill about as well as the .40-65," which he regarded as high praise.

No gun or bullet's going to work like a "death ray" with instant drops every time.

brother Not,

I have yet to witness a lightning-like effect on critters while using cast bullets, from 30 caliber through 45 in CF's and ML'ers including the .54.

I have however, blew away more deer than I care to publically admit using jscketed bullets from more than a dozen calibers. My favorite is the .308 using roundnosed bullets. Hits like the Hammer of Thor. I should drag out my winchester 95 in 35 whelen and load it with jacketed bullets this year just see how well it KO's a deer. I reckon I am just a sadistic eastern Kentucky hillbilly (actually have most of my teeth and a few limbs on the family tree) but the thrill of hearing that bullet 'Ker-Whack' and the sound of the breath being knocked out of deer and the nose spray a pint of blood about 2 milliseconds before it's ass bites the dust, ranks way up there close to the Bikini Atoll bomb test films!

I lived a depraved childhood and that must be the reason. Did I ever tell how we used to run a pail full of scalding hot water and then toss in litle frogs? HAR! They'd make one stretch and they was fried. Stayed stretched out too, like they were rubber. Ahhh...the joys of childhood.

If its down, its all good. I'd have to wait for further "testing" before making a comment.

How's them ribs?

Well, I certainly can't comment on the basis of having shot a lot of game with both sorts, as I haven't.

Waksupi,
Not to start a flame but here we have it. In Notricochet's post you see someone literally blew the heart out of the deer and it went quite a ways. I could relate you countless number of literally walking dead deer that went amazing amount of yards before piling up. So I don't buy your story about the amount of time a deer dies in when shot with an arrow and shot with a high speed jacketed bullet.

Jumptrap I mainly agree with what you said about cast bullet performance not matching jacketed as far as the shock. The main reason I haven't shot deer with cast in smaller bores. Now I have shot quite a few with my 45-70 with cast. All but one literally dropped where it was standing. The one exception was a big 10 point buck that went 75 yards before piling up. He by the way was shot clean through the heart at about 75 yards. I use the RCBS 405gr flatnose gascheck and my velocity out of my Browning 1886 carbine is about 1800 fps.

Joe

Aw, geez, now I'm gonna have to dig out the article, and get a copy for you somehow.
The difference between the wounds, is one is a blunt force type wound, where the other is a cutting type wound. Different things. I'll try and find it this week.

Ric
Not a full fledge flame hehehe I'm just asking you if you can honestly say you have or haven't known someone sometime that has shot a deer with a high powered rifle using jacketed bullets and the shot was a good one wiping out the heart or lungs and that the animal did go an amazing distance before it dropped.

I shot a ferral cat last weekend. Funny thing Ric, the first time I shot at it was with my AR15 HBAR with 3x9 scope and this damn rifle shoots very well and I missed the cat! I ended up seeing it later, when I wasn't looking for it, and I had my Goldcup Combat Commander with the old classic load of 200 gr lead swc over 4.0 grs of Bullseye and I hit the damn thing off hand a just shy of 50 yds and sitting on my very vibrating 4 wheeler. Though you might like to know as I know you grouse hunt with your 45.
Joe

Bug
Sorry I forgot to mention your cast performance. I think it was excellent. You couldn't ask for more then that, except that if you had indeed hit him between the eyes. Shucks I've known guys that hunted them with bigger guns with jacketed loads and had to put quite a few rounds in them to stop them. Again well done bug.

Joe

I nailed a Blacktail doe today with a 35-200 RCBS cast bullet using a 35 Rem and bullet was going about 1845 FPS. Deer was walking towards me at an angle. Hit r front behind shoulder and exited out the left ribs damaging 9 of them. Then went thru another doe. Both does dropped and one needed a follow up shot. 2nd Doe had massive entrance and exit wound. No bullet found. Straight wheelweights. Cold icky wet and snowy day in the cascade foothills. Orygun

Mark - Good shooting. Do you think you would have been better off with a harder bullet to control expansion? The hit on the second deer, with big expanded .35, nasty damage would be expected.

Starmetal, yes, indeed I have known of elk shot through the heart by a rifle to travel nearly a mile. My guess is too much cell destruction, causing veins and arteries to not bleed well.

The cat shot reminds me of a year or so ago. One of the neighbors cats was stalking a covey of grouse at the end of my driveway. Nailed him with a CB from one of my Swedes. Around a hundred yards offhand, I guess. Neighbor looked for the cat for a week, and I couldn't even brag on the shot to him!

I bet Carpetman crawls out of the woodwork to get in on this one now!

That bullet performed perfectly on THAT shot.

I kinda doubt it would have done well on a broadside, hide, lungs, and nothing else shot.

For that matter, I doubt that ANY 150 grain .30 cal bullet can do well on both shots.

A broadside shot would have given 100% penetration and retained weight would have been 0%.
Hard to argue with sucess.

waksupi,
Don't know as this is the first deer I have shot with a 35 cal Rifle. The other ones were with 30 cal bullets like 311334HP and 311291. Both were in the 2000-2100 fps range and straight WW's and went all the way thru with no expansion. It may be that nice FP and when it hit a rib it upset and started tumbling. May have benefited from some tin like 2% or so. Need to have more deer tags to try with and see what happens. Orygun

If you fellows want a bullet that always works and gives little meat damage, just use Barnes X-bullets or similar designs. My wife and I have killed over 20 deer with X-bullets and all have worked perfectly and destroyed very little meat. I have two perfectly expanded 6MM Rem bullets that look like the bullets in the ads. You do have to put them where they need to go. In my limited experience, lung shot and heart shot deer run. Spine shot and broadside shoulder shot deer hit the dirt. The amazing thing to me is that some of the quickest kills I have had is when the bullet passes through the top of the lungs just below the spine - instant death!

However, this is a cast bullet forum and I am developing a cast load with the RCBS 200 for a .356 Win to use for hunting. I am going to experiment with two part softnose boolits. My deer season is over for this year but I might be able to test them on a pig hunt in a few months.