Ok. You might remember two yrs ago or so on shooters trk/Tim and I had a longish thread drawing up a 30 caliber spitzer of high ballistic coefficent. Wound up I had my '329 mold recut for a 'speriment and have stuck with that. It flies nice to 600 yds as dos the LBT 170 I shooten. I have a Rapine on hand now to test thanks to Forrest which I need to spend some time with also.
But... the cast spitzer continues to be in a cloud of false assumptions. This is sad.. we're much more knowledgeable as a group but the old wives tales still exit. Like the greatest factory varmint rd ever.. the 220 Swift... idiocy has kept that number from wide spread useage. 'Nother story..
Are the potential buyers of a Lee spitzer project out there? Let me know.. I might carry the ball on a run if Grumble and Oldfeller will tell how to do such.
[ 11-13-2003, 07:11: Message edited by: aladin ]
Posts: 1529 | Location: Central Wisconsin | Registered: 01 March 2001
aladin, the hard part is making sure you have the level of interest in your design to make the order. The rest is easy.
Send a copy (snailmail, email, or fax) of your design to Lee so they can decide if it is do-able on their CNC machines. Decide on the mold blocks you want (1-, 2-, or 6-cavity), and place the order. Once they have the design, the rest can be done over the phone.
For boolit length, the 1-cavitity blocks are the longest, followed closely by the 6-cavity blocks, and the 2-cavity blocks are the shortest. For a hi-BC boolit, you're probably gonna be looking at either 1- or 6-cavity blocks.
As you probably know, Lee has a $100 setup fee, that they waive if you order at least 25 molds. Also, they give a significant discount to FFL holders (either 01 or 03), so getting an FFL to place the order for you is much cheaper.
Have fun!
grumble
Posts: 300 | Location: W. New Mexico | Registered: 28 December 2002
I don't remember the boolit length maximums, but 1.12" sticks in my mind for the 6-cavity, and the single cavity wasn't much more, maybe 1.16". But, I may be off, what with my certified CRS and all. <GGG>
Best bet for such specifics, and pricing, is to call Lee, at 262-673-3075. They're easy folks to work with.
Posts: 300 | Location: W. New Mexico | Registered: 28 December 2002
quote:Originally posted by grumble: I don't remember the boolit length maximums, but 1.12" sticks in my mind for the 6-cavity, and the single cavity wasn't much more, maybe 1.16". But, I may be off, what with my certified CRS and all. <GGG>
Best bet for such specifics, and pricing, is to call Lee, at 262-673-3075. They're easy folks to work with.
Thanks again Grumble. Heck that data is on their website. Length is 1.25"--- and if you slip them anther $50 they'll cut longer blocks..
Posts: 1529 | Location: Central Wisconsin | Registered: 01 March 2001
Thanks for even THINKING about putting forth the effort to see your spitzer design come to life.
Allow me to be (apparently) the first to say, YEP! I will indeed buy such a mould if it comes available, understanding that the money must be up front, and it all takes time, etc. etc.
I have benefitted from others' work in creating new designs, and why would I quit now? A feller can't have too many moulds, after all, and designs which reflect the latest thinking are very interesting. I guess you could say that I'll try anything....
I suspect that the single-cavity blocks will be most logical for this boolit, but it doesn't matter to me.
Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)
Posts: 437 | Location: nevada | Registered: 01 March 2003
Aladin - count me in; 1, 2 or 6. Still have the drawings. Would like to know how different that is from your experiments. We could also start another project on scaling to other calibers (apart from the standard .30 cal.).
Posts: 621 | Location: Virginia mountains | Registered: 25 December 2002
quote:Originally posted by trk: Aladin - count me in; 1, 2 or 6. Still have the drawings. Would like to know how different that is from your experiments. We could also start another project on scaling to other calibers (apart from the standard .30 cal.).
Hey Tim,
I have to shooten Forrest's Rapine mold some for comparison. It has a quick taper to .311 and stays that way for the body. I've only had it out once but it showed well. Essentially I'm leaning to shortening that taper from bore to groove dia and using two drivers like the '329. How big a diameter at the first driver is the pickle. I think most any commercially cut throat will handle a 309-- tapering that area would solve the issue. Minor issues really...cutting almost a clone of what we finalized it possible too.
Posts: 1529 | Location: Central Wisconsin | Registered: 01 March 2001
What would your proposed spitzer weigh? Is it meant to be 210 grains? A heavy 30 caliber bullet with a high B.C. would be perfect for rifle silhouette. I am interested!
quote:Originally posted by Marc: What would your proposed spitzer weigh? Is it meant to be 210 grains? A heavy 30 caliber bullet with a high B.C. would be perfect for rifle silhouette. I am interested!
Marc it should be close to that figure, maybe a tad lighter. I cut a spitzer PB otta a Lyman 311644 that goes 212 grs.
Tim's drawing is about a clone of Speer's 200 gr 30 caliber bullet, which reports a BC of .564
Posts: 1529 | Location: Central Wisconsin | Registered: 01 March 2001
Aladin, this is the HBC Boolit project, right? I was wondering what ever came of that. I'll have to dig through the archive and see if I can find some of those threads. Add me to the interested list. LostCajun
Posts: 47 | Location: Gretna, LA | Registered: 09 January 2003
LostCajun that be the one. Went to cut the mold and at the time the cutter was otherwise occuppied. Then I lucked into getting that '329 recut so a need I didn't have.
Looks like five of us already sans much effort. Could some of you guys spread the word to interested parties? Maybe on other forums too?
Thanks, Jay
Posts: 1529 | Location: Central Wisconsin | Registered: 01 March 2001
Doug can cut a 1.300" deep bullet in the single cavity LEE blocks if he pushed the cut all the way down to the dowel pin. Generally 1.250" is a safer maximum distance.
Count me in for one (1) single cavity mold on principle. Have you posted your design on the net so folks can see it yet?
quote:Originally posted by Oldfeller: Aladin, Have you posted your design on the net so folks can see it yet?
Oldfeller
No I haven't yet Kelly. Not sure exactly how I'm gonna finalize it. But as I believe I posted earlier in the thread it's just minor detales to work out/decide on.
Methinks when the artwork is completed I'll spring for a Foto Time subscription and post it here.
Can you and/or Grumble tell me how you guys defined what's a reject with Lee per mold? What kind of specs did you hold them to? I seem to remember you had some sent back to Lee??
Thanks, Jay
Posts: 1529 | Location: Central Wisconsin | Registered: 01 March 2001
Me too! I let a '329 get away a couple of years back, and this would be even better. Mine is an '03-A1 with a SA-28 barrel in fine condition; I assume the throating would be standard for this one. floodgate
quote:Originally posted by floodgate: Me too! I let a '329 get away a couple of years back, and this would be even better. Mine is an '03-A1 with a SA-28 barrel in fine condition; I assume the throating would be standard for this one. floodgate
Floodgate there's no such thing as standard throating. Trust me.. I've seen the gamet. Supposedly a chamber is one caliber of throat freebore-- has in .308 for a 30. But usually it's about half that on a decent reamer. I think a 309 diameter on the leade angle front would fit most anything. Usually throats are at least one thou over... and often much more. Methinks there's alot more oversized 30 caliber bores out there can undersized??
Jay.
Posts: 1529 | Location: Central Wisconsin | Registered: 01 March 2001
If there's anybody here who wasn't on Shooters when this was being discussed, here are some threads I dug up from the archive relating to the HBC Project. I'm not saying this is an all-inclusive list, but it should give MOST of the information. Actually, it seems there is some discussion that took place before the first thread, but I haven't looked for it yet. You should probably start from the bottom URL and work your way up, since the threads get older as you go down the list. I don't know if I have the drawing or not... I'll have to look for it when I get home.
Doug at LEE can start the far end of the cavity out with a drill bit that he custom grinds to mock the end form of a "pointy" bullet design.
LEE can do a sharp pointed bullet, (witness the Viper pellets) but LEE does generally recommend a small flat on a bullet that is going to go into a box magazine to cut down on recoil battering.
Obviously, the Viper airgun pellets get loaded one at a time so they don't hit this needs-a-wee-little-flat-on-the-tip "restriction". If you really wanted HBC to the full theoretical maximum, you could have a fully pointed bullet.
quote:Originally posted by Oldfeller: Doug at LEE can start the far end of the cavity out with a drill bit that he custom grinds to mock the end form of a "pointy" bullet design.
LEE can do a sharp pointed bullet, (witness the Viper pellets) but LEE does generally recommend a small flat on a bullet that is going to go into a box magazine to cut down on recoil battering.
Obviously, the Viper airgun pellets get loaded one at a time so they don't hit this needs-a-wee-little-flat-on-the-tip "restriction". If you really wanted HBC to the full theoretical maximum, you could have a fully pointed bullet.
Oldfeller
Great news. A fully pointed spitzer sounds like what it's gonna be! Be tempting to cheat out to say 1.27" with a finished checked length of around 1.29-- which just adds points on the BC. Gonna put that on my list of ?'s
Posts: 1529 | Location: Central Wisconsin | Registered: 01 March 2001
Put me on your list of suspects. I usually don't do Lee moulds, but this is the definite exception that proves the rule. I really want a good, long .30 boolit.
Just let me know how much and where to send the check.
quote:Originally posted by Bren Mk1: aladin, pard;
Thanks for even THINKING about putting forth the effort to see your spitzer design come to life.
Allow me to be (apparently) the first to say, YEP! I will indeed buy such a mould if it comes available, understanding that the money must be up front, and it all takes time, etc. etc.
I have benefitted from others' work in creating new designs, and why would I quit now? A feller can't have too many moulds, after all, and designs which reflect the latest thinking are very interesting. I guess you could say that I'll try anything....
I suspect that the single-cavity blocks will be most logical for this boolit, but it doesn't matter to me.
Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)
Hey Bruce,
Please send me a PM or e if you have mine with your contact e mail addy. Putting together a group for info in my e mail program. Thanks, Jay
Anyone else who hasn't gotten an email or PM from me acknowledging being on the list, please send me one.
Posts: 1529 | Location: Central Wisconsin | Registered: 01 March 2001
Have you posted a drawing yet? I am interested in playing with the various BC, spin and trajectory calculators a bit. Having just gotten a "twisted" experience with the Viper I would look pretty good at the existing crop of .308 barrels for some brands with slower twist rates that might foul some folks up. You can't just assume a 10 twist for all guns, there are going to be some 12 twist (and maybe a 14 or two).
Any bullet that maximizes its BC is going to push somebody's twist rate .....
Have you posted a drawing yet? I am interested in playing with the various BC, spin and trajectory calculators a bit. Having just gotten a "twisted" experience with the Viper I would look pretty good at the existing crop of .308 barrels for some brands with slower twist rates that might foul some folks up. You can't just assume a 10 twist for all guns, there are going to be some 12 twist (and maybe a 14 or two).
Any bullet that maximizes its BC is going to push somebody's twist rate .....
Oldfeller
No drawing as yet Kelly. The Speer 200 gr at 1.25" and 200 grs spins fine in 308 Win 12 twist per information supplied to me last yr. The 212 gr PB spitzer [1.25"] I have cut in an 311644 Lyman block does fine in a 12 twist 30/30 I ran tests in. I am not aware of any twist slower than 12 in any commerical barrel per 30 caliber. And the overwhelming majority of 30's are 10's.
I think anyone who has a twist slower than 12 would be in the custom installed barrel realm and would understand that twist is for very specific purposes.
Another side bar: one of the guys on Shooters posted using a lengthened '329 design in a 30/30. Seem to remember that was Jack and those slugs pushed 1.4" and were stable albeit in 10 twist.
And: the projections I worked out for the last drawing only required a twist of 12.9 to make a 1.5 factor...well within limits.[This projection using the most weight forward design]
Drawing up in a week or two...
[ 11-16-2003, 19:51: Message edited by: aladin ]
Posts: 1529 | Location: Central Wisconsin | Registered: 01 March 2001
Glad to see you back to the shooten world, Aladin. I guess you better put me down for a couple of these molds. Let me know amount and where to send it at elbler@rabbitbrush.com, when you get that far. Luck.
Ernie
Posts: 52 | Location: Spring Creek, NV | Registered: 18 September 2002
I am interested in the spitzer, would like to see a drawing as soon as you have one available.
I have a '329, but have not yet fired any of them. In lino, the diameter of the tangent to the ogive at the dirt scraper is .305; first driver is .3165; second driver is .3173. BIG! I might try that one in the DBR.
I also found a 311365, big brother to the '329, three drivers, 195 grains in lino. This one in ;lino is .307 at the tanget, first driver is .3088, second and third drivers are .3105. I have fired these with 4350, nothing to write home about. I will need to face the blocks off on that particular mould, as it appears that a previous owner atttmpted to dig bullets out of the mould with a srcew driver and buggered the base to the point that there is a wart there big enough that you can't knock it off with a thmubnail. Removing .020" will fix that and not be too big of a weight penalty.
At any rate, got these moulds for the same reason that you seem to be working up this new mould: '03 at long range. I am not a fan of Lee at all, but a fresh .30 spitzer is too much tempatation to me at this point.
For twists, the only thing above 1:12 likely to be found are the glut of 7.62 x 51 British LR take-offs that seem to be about these days, they are 1:14. Most Palma rifles will be 1:13 or 1:13-and a fraction, or even 1:14. (My own Palma rifle is a 1:12 Obermyer, and I have never regretted it, and yes, I do shoot cast in it).
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