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I've always measured my cast rifle bullets that at their driving/lube bands to determine proper fit. Last night "on a lark" I stuck one, nose first, into the muzzle of my 1903A3, it went right in with wiggle room. WOW, me thinks! So I try several other bullets in 2 other rifles all with the same result. I have three 30 cal. rifle bullet molds, all LEE, a 160, 180, & 200 grainers, all casting is done with linotype metal, and they all drop from the mold at .310" at the bands. What kind of fit between the bullet nose and the barrel lands should I be looking for, and what can I do? | ||
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There should be a friction fit between the nose and the lands, say, about a thousand's worth. If a loaded round is ejected, the round should come out without loosening the case's grip on the boolit. That would be an ideal fit. Open the mold(s) with that silver backing tape from the hardware/plumbing supply house that is used for wrapping ducts. There are several thicknesses available, and pick one that will hold open the mold just enough. Apply the tape in small strips between the cavities. This technique is called "to Beagle the mold", after one of our listers who posted this idea. ... felix | |||
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Ditto to all Felix posted. I'm in the midst of a similar inquiry with a vintage 1918 SMLE. I'm Beagling a Lee mold to get .305" on the bore rider and .316" for the THROAT, .315" calculated groove. It does pretty good work with the Lee 185/fat thirty, but needs further "steroid enhancement" to get right. This ancient warhorse shoots as well as I can with iron sights using jacketed bullets (1-1/4" to 1-1/2"), and I think with dimensional integrity the cast boolits can do as well. | |||
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B. Ebert as Felix said some minor degree of engravement is the goal, yet I've seen undersized noses shoot fine too. If the bullet is loaded on the centerline of the bore and with some degree of engravement on the first driving band accuracy should be the same if engaged... IF the load is capable of good accuracy. Riders shoot ok but no better than a well loaded cast bullet of other designs. | |||
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Being as these are ex-military rifles they may suffer from excessive muzzle wear due to improper cleaning. The rest of the bore may be tighter. try slugging closer to the breech and measure the true bore diameter. I'd wager that you will find it to be smaller than what you are seeing at the muzzle end. | |||
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Hope not, for that barrel might never shoot right, or as good as could be expected. ... felix | |||
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Felix has it right...there is even an explanation of fitting the nose in muzzle end of the bore in the NRA's Cast Bullet book. Zach..alot of guys recrown their military rifles because the bore wear from cleaning rods is usually very close to the muzzle. Doing this also doesn't alter the appearance of the rifle very much. Joe | |||
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All of the others are correct, but I hesitate to add that Lee bore riders are notorious for a too-small [bore riding] nose for .30cals. (as per the NRA "CB Handbk.") Some metric thirties, e.g the K-31 Swiss are an exception. ...Maven | |||
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Mr. Ebert...Welcome to the world of 30 caliber cast bullet frustration! You have received excellent input. About the only thing I would add is that the relationship of the body and nose riding portion is important in accuracy. The longer the nose riding portion is in porportion to the body, the more important the fit of the nose to the bore becomes. Older designs like 311291 which have about a 50/50 ratio do better with smaller noses than the more modern designs with looooog bore riding noses. If you have a loose nose, here are you choices. 1. Get a new mould and pray alot. 2. Beagle the mould 3. Bump up the nose 4. Get a bullet with a large nose and size the nose down. 5. Be satisfied with so-so accuracy. While frustrating at times, all of this is part of the attraction to the art of the cast bullet shooting. When you get a pet rifle to shoot cast bullets as well or better than jacketed bullets, then all of this seem worthwhile. Good Luck.. | |||
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Bore-riding nose .30 bullets do seem to hold most of the existing CBA benchrest records...with the Eagan MX4-30ARD bullet probably pre-eminent among them. Unless it has changed recently, I think Gary Long's 0.155" 5-shot group at 100 yards is the smallest CBA registered group, with David Lee's 0.165" group (previous record) the next best. Gary's group was fired from a .30 Long, which is his version of a .30 PPC, while Dave's was shot from a .30-BR chamber with the reamer run in about .1" short. Both are moving that 215 gr. .30 bullet along at about 1,950-2,000 chrono'd fps. I am poor on names, but think maybe Dan Tyler is the holder of many recent Production Class records with his Savage .308, also using the Eagan MX4-30ARD bullet. It is true that in Plain Base Bullet class the non-bore riding bullets (tapered bullets) shoot very well when "breech-seated". My own favorite is probably my own version of the .30 PPC. HOWEVER, when cornered, I'll admit is is just about as much fun (or maybe a wee tad more) to shoot my Browning '86 .45-70 with just about any good 350 gr. bullet and 58-59 grs. of VV-N135. That will make raggedy one-hole groups at 75 yards with iron sights. AC [ 10-13-2003, 10:59: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ] | |||
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quote:I'd like to suggest maybe the reason Eagan's rider is setting the records is because that's what everyone is USING. I do think it goes to base uniformity using those nose pours along with most of those guys using straight LINOTYPE which isn't subject to age hardening/softening. Yet those bullets are engaged for almost 80% of their total length and the crunch of acceration isn't bending them offline. Consider too a mold cut to go into the .1's has to be awful unform as to roundness in all respects-- something not found in our commercial molds. I maintain a spitzer style cut with a tapered leade section would shoot as well given the taylored throating and chambering in vogue in BR. Yet like in all BR, once someone finds a good recipe they all shoot the same-- if effect about shutting down experimentation. | |||
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"""Yet like in all BR, once someone finds a good recipe they all shoot the same-- if effect about shutting down experimentation.""" Yep, it might as well for a while so folks can concentrate in learning to shoot through various conditions. This alone seperates the winners from the loosers during most matches. Only on a good mental day can I do justice with a BR gun, and that is far too seldom any more. It takes a sharp brain to pick up on what's happening out there and xfer that onto the target. ... felix | |||
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I may be mistaken, but I believe lino IS subject to age-hardening. It is a typical lead/antimony class of alloy, and such alloys age harden. I know my lino bullets are definitely harder after 19-20 days than when they were cast. I also believe that BR is NOT the end of experimentation. While it is true that (as in all sports) some shooters try to buy success by copying what the winners do, that certainly is not true with all. And, for those who DO copy, we must ask the question "Why?" Answer: "Because what is already winning is already proved to work." In CB BR at the moment there is considerable experimentation going on with case sizes, shapes and so on. There is experimentation going on with zero clearance bullets (a force fit into the neck and throat of the chamber). There is constant experimentation looking for the ideal balance between bullet shape & weight, acceleration forces, muzzle velocity, recoil, hardness, and bore fit. It is true that a good wind reader can beat the sox off a man with a slightly better gun/ammo combo, if that better-armed man has less wind-reading ability. It is also true, however, that you can only learn to read the wind with both wind flags AND a really accurate rifle/ammo combo. If the rifle and ammo are not very, very accurate, then you never know whether it was the wind that moved the bullet, or the gun, the ammo, or the shooter. Despite the personalities and/or compulsions that rule BR, I suspect the two leading factors in the development of firearms over the centuries have been and will continue to be 1) War, and 2) Competition. Best wishes, AC [ 10-13-2003, 23:07: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ] | |||
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You are most definately right Albert Canuck. Depending on the type of alloy and processing, the hardness of a CB can change in either direction over time. Bullets with high tin-to-antimony content will age-soften significantly over many months, even if tempered. To stop or slow down softening, manufacturers adhere to a �rule-of-thumb� of limiting the tin content to no more than the percentage of antimony. High antimony CBs can be annealed (heated and cooled slowly) to reduce their hardness. But given enough time the bullet will eventually revert back to its original hardness. If you cast your own bullets, freeze storage in your home freezer is one trick used to virtually eliminate age-softening or age-hardening. So I take this opportunity to bring to our attention how eager NO BS is eager to get on my ass about knowledge here even to the point where he sent me a personal message (although you will notice that his personal messaging is turned off..and since mine also.) So now we see he's not a know it all and is in fact full of alot of BS. I've never claimed to know it all and have learned alot from these forums. To Mr NO BS..come down to TN and I'll show you how those rifles shoot I posted about here. Joe I'm from TN, not Western Mongolia...I don't have to hide my idenity. I also respect women alot more then saying the only difference between them is where the humps are. | |||
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"Joe I'm from TN, not Western Mongolia...I don't have to hide my idenity. I also respect women alot more then saying the only difference between them is where the humps are" Who's Joe? I mean only the type of women YOU are associated with... And thanks again star-paddle for the most informative reguritation of something all know. Yes you are right with the chime in... tin/lead alloys do age SOFTEN. Antimonal alloy age HARDEN to varying degrees according to how their processed, and then age SOFTEN. Something more for you to reguritate. Took a dump once in TN. Once was enough. [ 10-14-2003, 01:49: Message edited by: NO BS ] | |||
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Albert I think lino is an ecceltric [spell] metal whereas it's either molten or solid, meaning no slumping or inbetween area. Seem to recall due to this property it's properties remain about a constant given air cooling. I know lino will take heat treatment for a short time but revert to it's normal hardness very quickly. V Smith reported on heat treatment and I think he said it remained at the same level if air cooled [?]. | |||
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Hey starmetal, another Tennessee bullet caster (rather a neophyte one) here! What are the aging characteristics of wheelweight alloys? (I know that might be a very general question as the stuff seems to be rather variable.) I understand that when this stuff's either mould-dropped or oven heated and quench-hardened it is harder right away than annealed alloy, hardens more over a few weeks, but what happens when you keep bullets around for a few years? Does it end up like the annealed ones? Or do they slowly harden and approach the quenched ones? (I was Ricochet on the Shooters board. Some of you will remember my initial casting experiences about 3 years ago.) Got to go to the basement and load some 45-70s. I've got some previously cast Gould HPs going back to my first batch 3 years ago. Water-dropped them then. It was the day after my dad died, and I cast a LOT of them. That was a pretty good thing to occupy myself with at the time. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} Gonna try some 7383 with them, along with some of my more-proven loads. Bet it leaves lots of unburned powder, but so do lots of powders in the milder loads. [ 10-14-2003, 02:01: Message edited by: NotRicochet ] | |||
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Not Ricochet...Yes sir I had seen before that you are from TN and quite a few others. Here's a website for you and whoever else wants to check out. http://www.schuetzen.net/ferguson.htm#Quench%20Hardening%20Cast%20Bullets The NRA Cast Bullet book is a handy item to have if you don't have one yet, but there's alot of articles on the web if you search for it. Using your favorite search engine is a good way to find it. | |||
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NO BS...Amazing how ignorant and unrespectible you are with such statements as you took a dump in TN once. It's bad enough we have to fight the anti-gunner and the anti-hunters and then fight among ourselves here. Remember..you started this. I find it hard to believe we will win our fight to keep our firearms when we fight among ourselves. I've been reloading and shooting for alot of years and have learned alot of things about them during that time. I enjoy helping others pursuing the same. Like I said, you want to see those rifle shoot like I said they do come to TN and bring your money. Joe | |||
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Hey starmetal, thanks for the link! I'm still reading it. I want one of those NRA Cast Bullet Handbooks. | |||
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quote:star-paddle if your chain was any easier to jerk you'd probably be in a nut house. But maybe you are. | |||
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Joe- NO BS is from another board. He is from Norfolk, Va. He has posted his E-mail address in his profile there and has his picture in a couple of threads. If he gets rowdy again, I will give you the particulars! | |||
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45 2.1 Thank you sir but I don't believe there is a need for the rest. I just wanted everyone to know what kind of person we're dealing with here. Maybe if just get along it will be ok. Joe | |||
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quote:Joe- NO BS is from another board. He is from Norfolk, Va. He has posted his E-mail address in his profile there and has his picture in a couple of threads. If he gets rowdy again, I will give you the particulars! WRONG FELLA BOYS. star-paddle, it's just that I don't like the neanderthal type like you son. It's that simple...just like YOU. | |||
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FULL OF BS I'm just heart broken you don't like me. To keep this post on subject I DON'T THINK YOUR BULLET FITS IT'S BARREL VERY WELL. | |||
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