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Gentlemen, Looks like the 30 cal TL PB plinker is taking shape. I plan to get one if and when it comes together. I made the mistake of stopping in one of the local gunshops last night, and a M336A in 30-30 followed me home, I just love that 'sporting rifle' configuration in a 24" barrel lever action. Would be the ideal platform for such a boolit. Personally I don't think the boolit as drawn should present much of a problem in short throated lever actions, but I'll try get a sense of what kinda' length I can get in the "new" rifle tonight. I've been playing with trk's scaled down version of same and sent Tim a rough of a shortened gas checked version. I don't know if Lee can indeed do 25 cal. I'm thinking circa 75grains with the tumble lube grooves and about a .075" gas check heel so that you get an extra dab of lube just in front of the check. I'll be on the road towards the 1000 Islands in the next week or two, and anyway, I'm hopeless with paperwork, so I'll excuse myself from being an "organiser" of same. Grumble? You've got some experience with Lee and successfully arranged the C309-113-RF, and also seem innerested in a 25cal offering. Whatcha' think? Cheers, R*2 | ||
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I'm going to have to beg off, Russ. I have a lot of other things going right now, including starting a business. These mold projects aren't hard, but they do take a bit of time in keeping track of things and answering all the mail. I really do want a good 25-20 mold, though! If Lee can cut a .17 pellet, I don't know why they'd have any problems with a .25. This is a project I'd been hoping for for a couple years. I sure hope it gets off the ground! As encouragement to anyone who has the time to honcho the project, it really isn't hard, and to my knowledge, not a single bad check has ever been passed in ANY of the special order mold projects. Casters are an honest bunch. Lee is easy to work with, and the only frustration you'll get from them is trying to get a firm production time -- they won't commit, due to their internal schedules, but other than that, they'll work with you in any way they can, right on up to John Lee his own self. | |||
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OK, looks like I am the only one with time and interest. I'll take it on if Grumble and Lar will give me some tips on who to deal with at Lee, phone numbers, etc. Cat Whisperer has already indicated that he will do the drafting if someone else does the rest of the work. First question is "Where are we going with this, plain base or GC?" I'm inclined to PB of about 80 grains. The original drawing would have done me fine, fattened to .258 min and with about 10 grains shaved off the nose. Especially in the heavier bullets for the .25-20, I don't see a great deal to be gained with GCs, but others may differ. I'm taking six cavity as a given. Thrash it out. We need a consensus on just what we are doing. Find a design we can live with and we'll ask for a revised drawing. Find 15 people who want in, and I'll front for a 25 mould order. Here's our starting point. Reference what changes you would like to see made to this design.  | |||
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First question is "Where are we going with this, plain base or GC?" I'm inclined to PB of about 80 grains. The original drawing would have done me fine, fattened to .258 min and with about 10 grains shaved off the nose. Especially in the heavier bullets for the .25-20, I don't see a great deal to be gained with GCs, but others may differ. I'm taking six cavity as a given. Leftoverdj- Excellant! | |||
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Aha! We get our first point of discussion: to gas check or not to gascheck! Personally, I'd prefer a check for this boolit, but I'll take it with or without. The origional 32-20 used an 86 gr boolit, and the closer this is to that weight, IMO, the better. Not to worry about complexities of dealing with Lee -- they're real easy to get along with, and have helped many first-time custom mold buyers with their projects. I'll be glad to provide whatever help and assistance may be needed. You can get me at grumble222@yahoo.com. | |||
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Leftie! Alright! A volunteer. You're hired! Personally I prefer a GC for the higher velocities easily attained with the 25cals, and have found them to be a bit more consistent accuracy wise, and for hunting purposes, a softer boolit in front of a check has worked well for me. I'm thinking of something for my 256WinMag, 25-06, 25-36M, 25-35Win, as a high velocity 'varminter' round. And top loads for a 75gr ,even in the venerable 25-20 can top 2000fps. I know that with the C309-113-RF I can hit 2350 with a checked boolit with no leading. I know it's an extra step, and expense, in the reloading process, but it seems to me that having the option of a GC boolit would expand the range of suitable cartridges for it considerably. That being said, I have found, limited experience here mind you, that the unchecked version of the above 309 performs just fine at subsonic velocities in my 32-20 revolver. I feel that a PB version would limit velocity potential far too much, at least for my purposes. Having a boolit that could be used in the above cartridges, and things like the 257 Roberts, 250-3000 Savage,, etc etc, would have more usage, and a wider appeal. My two cents worth, {  ).Cheers, R*2 Ps. Great to see the interest! Lotsa 30 and 35 cal moulds out there, let's expand the range to the 'oddballs', or certainly those calibers that have much fewer 'stock offerings'. | |||
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In responce to Grumble's "No bad checks", I didn't have any problems with payments. Also when I did the local surplus Lyman 1/2 off deal. I sent out molds as people spoke for them and recieved all the checks afterwards. The wife frowned on me for that, but it worked out. Oh, one other thing is that Lee wanted me to have a resale liscence or FFL to get the discount price or the molds would be $50 each. They said that they don't do the club based group purchase thing anymore. When she said that they were firm on the no liscence thing, then I said that I couldn't afford the $50 each and would have to cancel. She put me on hold and came back and said they would give me the discount. So maybe if you can find someone with a ffl or resale liscence then that will avoid any hassle. | |||
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Quote: RRussell put forth the case for gas checked very well. It lends itself to a lot more uses. I'll put forth the case for plain based: 1. There are already excellent moulds in .25 GC designs. The Lyman SWC of about 70 grains has served me well for many years, and the RCBS 100 grainer feeds my other .25s. 2. PITA factor. GCing .25s that you are gonna plink with is a nuisance. 3. Cost. GCs ain't cheap and they keep going up. 4. Speed of production. Plain based are twice, maybe three times as fast to produce overall as GC. Now ya'll fight it out. I'm in, either way. Takes a GC to get 15 people signed on, we'll go GC. Hit a deadlock at 10-12 people each way, and I'll make a command decision. One good thing is that our basic design looks to have enough base band that we can hold off to the last second to decide on the GC. | |||
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Lar45, interesting that Lee is starting to balk at these custom runs. I would guess that they lose money on them considering the time involved, and only do it as a service to their customers. Some of us can remember back in the '70's when RCBS used to run ads bragging about how their beancounters wanted to shut down the custom die department because it was not profitable, but RCBS kept it going out of loyalty to their customers. I hear the bean counters at RCBS finally got their way. | |||
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Folks, it's not the weight that is important, but the total length. We need a list of all the jacketed boolits at 80-90 grains with their lengths. We will take the longest one as our maximum length. Ours will stablize at least equally because we will be having a heavy lead as a jacket as opposed to a light copper/zinc jacket. The heaviest material should be on the outside of a boolit as opposed toto the inside. As far as marginal twists are concerned, hollow point boolits shoot best because of the weight loss towards the center of the boolit. I would go in for a gas checked version for some gun I might have in the future. ... felix | |||
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Felix, Guessing here that with the 'stubby nose', 1 in 14" twist (M62 in 256WinMag) would be enough to stabilise around Mach 2, I knocked off one of the TL grooves with a GC base and sent it off to trk,, we'll see what CAD can come up with in terms of volumes, and LOA, I'm hoping for a 75-80gr, but heavier is fine by me. On HP's, and their stability/accuracy, I'm thinking that removing weight from the nose also means that the "wobble factor" possible with an area of the boolit untouched by the rifleing is also reduced. Better get that HPointer jig for the Forster Case trimmer I just got off of Ebay, NICE tool! Dunno if it really helps for 'mushroom expansion' on cast boolits, but you've just given reason enough to try one out. High speed fragmentation doesn't hurt either on the size/type of game intended for the 25 cals. Cheers, R*2 | |||
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"Lee wanted me to have a resale liscence or FFL" Lars I'll betcha' they'd also be happy with a C&R liscence. Cheers, R*2 | |||
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"Takes a GC to get 15 people signed on, we'll go GC." Leftoverdj I'm countin' me, Grumble, and Felix for checked,,, { )))))Cheers, R*2 | |||
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"We need a list of all the jacketed boolits at 80-90 grains with their lengths." Felix The Remington 86gr JSP bulk has a meplat of ~.140 or 55%, something I think we can all agree on for making it suitable in tubular magazine 25-20's, and a LOA of .692". Cheers, R*2 | |||
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Quote: Ahh, and while I've got the calipers here, a nose length of .250", (top of cannelure). R*2 | |||
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We got some basic limits, folks. The body behind the front of the crimp groove can't be any longer than .400" and still keep the base within the neck. The portion foward of the crimp groove can't be any longer than .300" and still work through all magazines. My Lyman mould has a groove diameter band .050" wide ahead of the crimp groove. I'm inclined to take that as max. All this comes in mighty close to the Rem. 86 grainers. They could go a bit deeper into the case and had to stay a bit farther off the lands because of the jacket. I'd like to get as close to a 2:1 bearing surface to nose ratio as we can for accuracy reasons. We can get a little more bearing either with a front band or going to an ogival nose that starts at .258" and ends in a 60% meplate in about .250" I'd like to see some more dimensions on it, but that original drawing just keeps looking better and better to me. | |||
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Quote: Tune in tomorrow night. Pix at 10pm. (well maybe before). | |||
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The nose still needs some adjustment (as do most of ours). [url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=174610&c=500&z=1"]  [/url]or: http://www.hunt101.com/img/174610.jpg I guess I'll have to dust off my old leaver action .25-20. | |||
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Tim, you wanna explain your thinking on that long GC shank? I got some guesses and think I may agree, but you might spell it out? | |||
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No thoughts. (Lack of dimensions indicate I haven't put ANY thought into the sizes.) Well, it would be good to have a gap between the check and the base band for lube. I will check (pun not intended, but not inappropriate) the Hornaday dimensions and size it appropriately. Same goes for the nose - we need to determine standard bore/groove diameters and fit to the throat for intended bores. | |||
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There are alot of gas check bullets out there of this weight. I still would like a 80 gr. Plain Based bullet. This one with a 0.08" to 0.100" base band and no gas check looks very good. If your worried about leading, use Grex or any other powder poly granuals. Works fine to stop leading which doesn't happen with LA in this caliber. I get a 91 gr. bullet out of this to. | |||
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Tim et al, Sitting here with a new box of Hornaday 25 cal Gas Checks "for cast bullets" #7030. Outside Diameter: .264" Inside Diameter: .2425" Height : .056" Thickness of CU : .010" Guessing here that with one crimped on, one would be left with a lube groove of ~ 40-50thou, matching the TL grooves nicely. Brophy's book on Marlins lists the specs for the Model 94 in 25/20 as .250 x .254 with a 1 in 12" twist. I'll try and get some measurements over the next coupla' days as to a throat, and slug the barrel on mine and post them. Weight as drawn should be just fine,,, I think the nose as drawn is looking real good, and as I've pointed out on the TLPB thread, the TL grooves as alternative crimp grooves leaves a lot of 'fudge' factor for various chambers, and cartridges. Good stuff Tim! Much appreciated the time and effort it's clearly taken. Cheers all! R*2 | |||
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Will work perfectly as shown in a 14 twist gun, according to WinGyro. No need to have such a "deep" crimp groove because the typical brass is so thin. Shortening the gas check shank some will also improve the twist requirement, Yes, leave enough room for lube there and at the nose junction if making the crimp groove more shallow. ... felix speed stability twist 600 1.60 14.5 700 1.59 14.4 800 1.57 14.3 900 1.54 14.2 1000 1.49 14.0 1100 1.35 13.3 1200 2.04 16.3 1300 2.03 16.3 1400 2.05 16.4 1500 2.08 16.5 1600 2.10 16.6 1700 2.12 16.6 1800 2.14 16.7 1900 2.15 16.8 2000 2.17 16.8 2100 2.18 16.9 2200 2.19 16.9 2300 2.21 17.0 2400 2.22 17.0 2500 2.22 17.0 2600 2.23 17.1 2700 2.24 17.1 2800 2.25 17.1 | |||
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I'd like to see the nose shortened to .25 forward of the crimp groove. We are at max length at .30, and the shorter nose would leave a little more wiggle room, take a few grains off the weight, and improve the bearing to non-bearing ratio. We can either start the ogive at .258 just ahead of the crimp groove or we can stay with the front bearing band and step down (to .250???). I'm inclined to favor the ogive starting maybe .015 ahead of the crimp groove so we can fit it into the throat by fiddling with COL, but I sure don't have strong feelings about this. 45-2.1, don't give up on the PB just yet. When we get all the details worked out, we'll ask Tim for drawings of both versions and shop them around. | |||
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Back to the GC voting. I just talked to a "non-computer" kinda guy that's my gun-swapping buddy. If it's a gas check design, he wants one, and thinks he knows two other guys that will want one too, which means four votes for checks (me and those three guys). I'll guarantee to buy at least three of the GC molds. | |||
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In looking at the SAAMI specs for chambers/throating the throats for .25-20, .25-35, .256 Win, .25-06 and others are ALL different. From the discussion thus far I'm going to assume that at least .25-20 is the starting place for one optimized design. It may function equally well or better in the others, but from a STARTING point - that's where I'm headed. Perhaps a FB for .25-20 and a GC for higher velocities? | |||
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Tim, my take is that it has to work in .25-20s. If it works well in other stuff, fine. To complicate matters, many of the rifles in which this will be shot were made before there were SAAMI specs. I'm shooting a Savage 23 that's an easy 70 years old, myself. I know that Lyman 257410 works well in it. I know the Rem. 86 grain condom bullet works in it. I dunno that there is an optimal design that will work in all the throats. My take is that we have .450 length of bearing surface and .200 for nose, figgering the .050 band in the bullet seat I got from measuring the Lyman. Just about any nose shape ending in a fair sized meplate that suits you and the others will suit me. Far as the GC v. PB debate goes, I'm willing to do either or both. I don't see that the base design matters much to rest of the bullet. I'm assuming it's fairly easy for you to do your magic showing the same bullet both as PB and as GC. When we get a final design, we can shop them around and let folks vote with their money. We get 15-16 orders for a version, I'll order it. That gives the partisans of both choices a little incentive to help hunt up more buyers. I've watched these group buys long enough to be pretty sure there will be last minute folks trying to get on board and folks crying because they missed the boat. If I wind up holding 10 moulds of either design, I'll just tack on a late fee and sell them gradually. | |||
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I would be "IN" for PB version. I have a Lyman 257312 <or whatever it is,not handy at the moment> and I would much rather spend my time shooting the mighty big piles of ready to go boolits then spending extra time checking' them as well. 45nut. | |||
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Quote: Gents, To optimize for the 25-20, the length/weight as shown should as Felix has pointed out, be ideal in the slowest twist that I've found listed of 1 in 14" for the 25-20. The nose, as drawn, may be too long, I believe we can agree that the .250" nose of the Rem JSP fits for all of the participants here at least. For me, I would be happy with the existing design, with the possible alteration to the front driving band of a bevelled front edge to a .250diam ogived nose, rather than the square leading into a .258OD. This should mean the possibly of crimping at that point leaving a COL that would fit into the SAAMI spec of 1.5920". For me, the checking is not much of an additional hassle, but as I've pointed out, for lower velocities, simply leaving the check off for a shorter range "volume plinker" is not going to make too much of a difference accuracy wise. That being said, if we can arrive at an optimum GC design for a CNC lathe bored design, it shouldn't be too much of a pproblem to shorten the boring leaving a PB version, yes, a lil lighter. But hey, if we get enuff interest, mebbe a run of each, whatever,,,,,,,. As Dj has pointed out, and his kind offer of sponsoring possibly both, I think that once built, there'd be no problem distributing 25 of @ type. I'll spend some time this evening and dig out my Marlin 25-20 and play with some cartridges and bullets. I should have some cerrosafe around, LOL, dunno quite where it is at the moment, if I find it I'll have a go at a chamber cast. Of course the variations in older guns are much greater, IMO, than the modern offerings. But I think that if we can optimize a design for a minimum 25-20, it'll ez be suitable for other cartridges, especially with the crimping options that the TL grooves give as to COL lengths. Thanks again Tim for the CAD work! Collectively I'm sure we can end up with a design that'll work for all and sundry. Cheers, R*2 | |||
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Not done yet, but a few refinements: http://www.hunt101.com/img/176982.jpg I need to verify with the Hornady drawing I've got (took the measured gas check dimensions and allowed .030 gap). Diameter is .258 to meet .256 groove and nose is .252 to meet .250 bore dimensions of SAAMI spec. This one's a little shorter. Need to check COAL and match up to SAAMI chamber drawing. | |||
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Tim et al., Been playing with my Marlin "94, circa 1910 in 25-20M, and various cartridge/bullet configurations. It will reliably feed an overall cartridge length of 1.615" with the Rem 86grJSP, and with that bullet seated backwards, shows a throat length of .090". Certainly the latest rework of the idea would be no problem at all seating with the nose as drawn to a length of .250", and I might be able to utilise the first TL groove as a crimp in my rifle 'as is', it's also a fairly simple matter to extend the COAL on Marlins with a bit of work on the cartridge lifter. My only change would be a request for a smaller meplat, back to .150", the rounder nose would make for an easier feed, and certainly if that diam of meplat suits the liability lawyers of Remington, I don't think we need fear the possibility of "magazine tube detonation under recoil". Certainly some of the factory ammo RN's that are sold by Winchester et al for the 30-30 have less of a 'pressure zone' on a large rifle primer. Looking real good folks! Cheers, R*2 | |||
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I recently acquired an original Marlin 94 in 25-20. I would definately buy a midweight pb mold. I have two pita gas check molds, one light and one heavy. Regards, Woody | |||
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I'd be in for a PB version. Like others - I'm looking for a plinking bullet and a mould to crank out a bunch of bullets and avoid the hassle of lube sizing & GC seating + expense. Like the nose profile of the bullet. Wonder if it wouldn't benefit from a bit longer front driver band though. Doesn't look to be much material there for the bullet to get a good grip currently - especially when shrunk down to actual size... Best regards- Sky C. | |||
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ooooookay. http://www.hunt101.com/img/177672.jpg <a href="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=177672&c=500&z=1" title="Hosted Free at Hunt101.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.hunt101.com/img/177672.jpg" border="0"></a> [url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=177672&c=500&z=1"]  [/url] Left red line is corner of neck. Middle pair of red lines is min-max length of casing. Right pair of red lines is min-max COAL. (Measured from bolt face. Chamber as drawn is a minimum chamber. and http://www.hunt101.com/img/177678.jpg <a href="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=177678&c=500&z=1" title="Hosted Free at Hunt101.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.hunt101.com/img/177678.jpg" border="0"></a> [url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=177678&c=500&z=1"]  [/url] Not yet done: check of gas-check dimensions (.030 gap in front of it), angle and diamters of tail. | |||
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Tim! ***** R*2 | |||
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That SHINES, Tim! It'll feed if anything will, and it sure looks like it'll shoot. I liked the bigger meplat, but I concur that this change was needed to make it feed in the hodgepodge of rifles it's gonna get shot in. Now that we have the bullet, do you suppose we could do a group buy on rifles for it? Just dreaming. | |||
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Quote: DJ, Welllllll, http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/catalog.aspx?catid=PistolcaliberCenterfireBarrels, here are the barrels, lol. Marlin is currently producing a "Cowboy" in 32H&R. Personally, iffen I can find a 1894 in 357Mag at the right price, I'd put one of the 25cal barrels on it and chamber to 256WinMag. I've got a Marlin 62 Levermatic in same, and it's a wonderfull cartridge, the old 25-20 on steroids. Much stronger case, and the conversion would be dead ez, tube, bolt face all the same, and you'd have a hot lil' Cowboy, should be able to push the proposed boolit to 2300-2400 fps. Took my old Marlin "94 to the range last night with a new Red Dot scope mounted, (the old girl IS d'ed&t'ed). A start load of 12gr of Rx7 under the Rem 86gr JSP is grouping under an inch at 25yds off my elbows sitting at the bench. I'm sure I'll ez get our boolit here to do the same. Cheers! R*2 | |||
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That's good to know, Rrussell. I knew of some suitable round barrels but did not know of a tapered octagon. I have a Stevens Model 44 in .25 Stevens that could certainly use a spare barrel in .25-20. Unfortunately, I just spent all my play money for several months on a CZ 527 in 7.62x39. That cast bullet thing again. Having one of those Green Mountain barrels fitted to the Stevens might do very nicely for my annual Christmas present to myself, though. | |||
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Good News! Tim posted this project on Cast Boolets and we got 5 commitments, 2 PB and 3 GC, in less than 24 hours. We're about halfway to both thresholds and don't even have final drawings. | |||
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Okay, I'm in on this one when it's done. Now I'll have to find a gun to shoot it in. | |||
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