10 shots of Lee .459 500 3R recut to 1/3 of the lube capacity. 3" for the spread-- five in that hole.

21 grs of surplus 4759 with Fed 210M's, my lube with the bullets push sized .457 heat treated hard and seated hard into the rifling making 1200 fps area.

Fired otta a H%R Buffalo Classic 45/70 pipe which I'm in the process of experimenting with some bedding ideas for the forearm. Hoping to get some real consistentcy otta that long, skinny 32"er.

JFWIW. This bullet shows some real potential methinks. At 13.70 how can ya go wrong....

BTW the taped holes are previous 30 cal shooten.

[ 03-06-2003, 17:54: Message edited by: aladin ]

Aladin:

A: 10 shots of Lee .459 500 3R recut to 1/3 of the lube capacity. 3" for the spread-- five in that hole..

F: Reasonable good shooting for what must be the first time out! And with bullets that can't be over a week old.

I seems to me that a more advanced 45 caliber rifle might be considered for shooting those jewel-like bullets!

What sights are your rifle?

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Forrest I agree on the rifle. Yet I'd sure like to get a real barrel on one of those pipe's.... It'd shooten methinks.

Those bullets were push sized .457 and heat treated hard. Dunno if I posted that. I find hard bullets shoot fine even after as little as three hrs in my 06-- and that with real speed.

Same loading today-- albeit in alot of wind. Wind chill had to be near 0 degrees. My shooten partner didn't fire his gun..." it's too d** cold out here" I think I heard several times today. Yet he came out and clocked all my loads today.

8 rds total. .4 grs of lube on the slug. Might move up and do all three grooves next time. Height impact chg is adjustment of the scope. Think the rt chg is same. Note the ES for 8 rds- this loading the same as above-- 21 grs of Surplus 4759.

"What sights are your rifle?"

Scope sighted-- a high magnification variable no less. Haven't been enclused enough about the gun's consistentcy do add irons...

Ever see anyone bed the forearm so it supports the barrel it's [the forearm] full length?

Methinks the bore rider 500 gov works better than the Lee BTW-- which has a very short rider and is undersized for my barrel. I should run some more of these before chging out the bedding.

Aladin:

A: Those bullets were push sized .457 and heat treated hard. Dunno if I posted that. I find hard bullets shoot fine even after as little as three hrs in my 06-- and that with real speed.

F: Ah! I see. I haven't heat treated anything for years. All my bullets are age hardened.

A: Same loading today-- albeit in alot of wind. Wind chill had to be near 0 degrees..

F: Yes, I was out trying the 44 1/2 in 17 degrees and 15 knots of wind the other day. It was cold enough to make credible shooting pretty tough stuff.

Do I read the target right: It was fired at 500 yards?

Good evening,
Forrest

"Do I read the target right: It was fired at 500 yards?"

I wish. 500M designates the bullet. The M meaning modified as I recut the lube grooves.

The heat treating to see if this marginal barrel would benefit from a harder bearing surface on the bullet. The 500 government bullet is at least matching this bullet for groups and is age hardened as yours.

Forrest how long do you let your cast 'age up' before trying them?

Aladin:

A: Ever see anyone bed the forearm so it supports the barrel it's [the forearm] full length?

F: Is there any other way?

I come from a typical long line of bolt gun shooters which sport includes the belief that barrels should be free floated for best accuracy. In the Buffalo Rifle game this does not seem to help and is not a consideration amoung ANY of the first-class men I know on the firing line.

Good morning,
Forrest

Aladin:

A: The M meaning modified as I recut the lube grooves.

F: How did you do that?

A: How long do you let your cast 'age up' before trying them?

F: I try not to shoot anything younger than 30 day old bullets. If I do for experimental purposes I make a note in the load book to make sure I recheck the combination after the bullets have stabilized.

For record shooting they have to be at least 6 months old, preferably a full year in the box.

Good morning,
Forrest

Forrest I recut that mold on a friend's lathe. Ran a nice new sharp 7/16'ths bit in. For both sides now there's around .020 total of lube depth which works fine with my lube [.010 ea side].

The bore ride 457125's continue to shoot fine in my gun despite the fact that rider is .004 undersized. I did note their obturating to groove albeit using 3 more grs of powder. Dug them out at 300 yd berm. A .452 Lee sizer is on the way and I will make some riders otta the Lee and LBT molds.

I've had good success heat treating and shooten only four hrs later [06 experiments mostly]. This with speed and fairly hi psi's. On the other end I'v annealed like I suggested to Sky. This appeared to work out fine shooten Postells and Gov bullets. I do agree long aging works the best. Why is that??

[ 03-08-2003, 18:39: Message edited by: aladin ]

Aladin:

A: I've had good success heat treating and shooten only four hrs later [06 experiments mostly]. This with speed and fairly hi psi's. On the other end I've annealed like I suggested to Sky. This appeared to work out fine shooten Postells and Gov bullets. I do agree long aging works the best. Why is that??

F: For my buffalo rifle shooting hardness is not a real serious requirement. My alloy will run something like 96% lead 2% antimony 2% tin. This is soft enough that it'll move around some upon firing as we have considered. Still, the alloy moves in predictable ways such that good consitent results are obtained without tossing unnecessary amounts of expensive tin or even antimony down range.

The antimony is there mainly to stabilize the alloy as bullets made from straight lead/tin mixes will move around all by themselves at room temperatures.

I don't know exactly why age hardening, or stabilizing, works better than quenching. Perhaps there is someone else here on site who could do a better job than I at explaining it.

Good evening,
Forrest

"F: For my buffalo rifle shooting hardness is not a real serious requirement. My alloy will run something like 96% lead 2% antimony 2% tin. This is soft enough that it'll move around some upon firing as we have considered. Still, the alloy moves in predictable ways such that good consitent results are obtained without tossing unnecessary amounts of expensive tin or even antimony down range"

My rationale for hardening 45/70 bullets is increasing bearing surface strength and to minimize if not prevent obturation. Closer to the results you'd get with a jacketed slug. Not that I care to mess with it in a 45/70 but if my barrel shoots that better-- I guess it's a consideration. Jury is out though in this regard.

I don't add anything to my ww alloy for casting. Might be somewhat touchier for high Q but it's doable. If anything I add a very small percentage of lino for the tin.

My .452 Lee sizer should arrive this week for the 'grand' experiment... Nose sizing the LBT long spitzer and the Lee 500 to ride my land tops. That's getting to the PITA zone for any number of rds, but if it works out I might get a mold along those lines-- or lap out a Postell or Smitzer '658.

Any experience with the molds of Werner Wolfe from Hamilton, Montana?

Aladin:

A: My rationale for hardening 45/70 bullets is increasing bearing surface strength and to minimize if not prevent obturation..

F: ..Say that again? I'd think that obturation is a good thing; sealing up the bore from blow-by and so forth.

I can get behind the need for strong bullets built to take the beating and still deliver accuracy but in the semi-slow to really-slow shooting done in Buffalo Rifles I get better performance with softer bullets. Less work too!

A: I don't add anything to my ww alloy for casting. Might be somewhat touchier for high Q but it's doable. If anything I add a very small percentage of lino for the tin.

F: Sure. Casting good bullets out of staight WW is possible and after seeing your photographs I'm convinced you've gotten it down to near-perfect. For me now, I need the help of that 2% tin to assure good consistent production without working at it any harder than necessary!

A: My .452 Lee sizer should arrive this week for the 'grand' experiment... Nose sizing the LBT long spitzer and the Lee 500 to ride my land tops. That's getting to the PITA zone for any number of rds, but if it works out I might get a mold along those lines-- or lap out a Postell or Smitzer '658.

F: I'll go out on a limb, just for the sake of keeping some interest up, and say that that I bet the standard bullets will shoot as well or better than the ones you plan on nose-sizing to generate a bore-rider. It's just a feeling I've got. Let me know.

A: Any experience with the molds of Werner Wolfe from Hamilton, Montana?

F: Nope. I have not heard of him at all.

Good morning,
Forrest

"F: ..Say that again? I'd think that obturation is a good thing; sealing up the bore from blow-by and so forth"

Obturation in my book is way, way over rated. I'd readily admit softer bullet might shooten better but not due to obturation...

Remember now... I'm shooten a marginal bore with lands short enough to hide in a bright light lookin' down that 'tube'. Yet consider this-- say the throat in my gun is 457-458 with the bore going 456. If I seat that slug against the lands it moves forward a few thou and I've got seal. This with a slug that's OVER throat dia. In real terms that slug is being swaged down to groove dia-- and with the lube sealing the cracks you needs seal??

Consider that a friendly bet-- methinks making a rider dia works... your on the other side of the fence. What we wagering??

Did you send out those bullets for measurement yet?

"A: Any experience with the molds of Werner Wolfe from Hamilton, Montana?

F: Nope. I have not heard of him at all"

Forrest I spoke to Werner a couple yrs ago. He recuts Lyman molds to their designs and if I remember correctly cuts BPCR type designs-- if in his own blocks I dunno. From what I could discern I think he'd be worth a looksee for a mold.

Aladin:

A: Obturation in my book is way, way over rated. I'd readily admit softer bullet might shooten better but not due to obturation...

F: I have a feeling that we're not reading off the same page somehow.

In my book obturation is plugging up something, as in filling the bore full enough that little or no gases excape past the bullet BEFORE it begins to move.

This is mighty inportant IMO because anything that hot leaking past the bullet will cut lead off it. Damage in other words. Leading the barrel possibly and to be avoided whenever I can do so.

A: Consider that a friendly bet-- methinks making a rider dia works... your on the other side of the fence.

F: Don't get me wrong here. I shoot lots of bore-riding bullets and they do work. On the other hand I also have a considerable amount of expierience shooting the LBT and now Mos type radius nose bullets which also shoot very well.

My idea is that the additional procedure won't really improve the accuracy of a bullet already shaped to the non-rider cofiguration. It might even damage it such that won't shoot as well.

A: What we wagering??

F: Humm. I didn't have anything material in mind. Perhaps only the principal of the thing? Or, I'll look at/consider your ideas for wager..

A: Did you send out those bullets for measurement yet?

F: Nope. I'm in trouble because I don't have either your email or smail addresses yet. Mine is FAsmus@yahoo.com

I should go. Denver is calling me today: I have the Veteran's Administration streacher passengers to take there and back this morning.

So long,
Forrest

"In my book obturation is plugging up something, as in filling the bore full enough that little or no gases excape past the bullet BEFORE it begins to move"

Methinks this is a misconception with most powders and alloy bullets. A slug starts to move well before anything near a psi which would compress the slug to start a swelling of the dia. Once the rifling is engraved on the forward end the seal is accomplished-- IF the psi isn't great enough to cause gas cutting and the fitting is reasonably close, as in a swaging process- with the slug being sized down to groove dia.

The Quik Load program shows the bullet movement in inches before peak pressure is reached. I don't have the program myself but have seen that program in use. Slow powders might allow 1.5" of travel or more before peak, in the faster numbers it might be .3" or so. But the compression of the slug isn't immediate as that bullet stands at rest.

Now take a pure lead slug. That alloy should start reacting to a psi of 7250 [1450* times 5 bhn]. Being as the initial pressure of black powder is somewhat higher than smokeless-- a pure lead alloy slug should start reacting to that strain almost with first movement. This is where the classic model of obturation originates-- and then is applied to all lead bullet scenario's, which is not fully correct.

Below is a obturation picture of three 20-1 alloy 45 caliber slugs per Mike Lewis. Mike told me obturation is certain with BLK loads until the alloy hardness reaches Lyman #2 alloy or 15 bhn. Obturation is less at this hardness and above is very minor. These slugs BTW foreshortened around .025" if I remember the response from Mike correctly.

* is for the figure used to compute the BNH unit. One BHN is equal to 1450 psi. I've seen that figure at 1495 and 1422-- so I use an average of 1450.


Note the compression of the rear lube grooves and the ogive swelled to groove dia. These slugs around 9 bhn. The center slug is unfired for comparison, the fired slugs recovered from a snowbank.

[ 03-12-2003, 05:41: Message edited by: aladin ]

Aladin,

A: Methinks this is a misconception with most powders and alloy bullets. A slug starts to move well before anything near a psi which would compress the slug to start a swelling of the dia.

F: OK. I think so too.

A: Once the rifling is engraved on the forward end the seal is accomplished-- IF the psi isn't great enough to cause gas cutting..

F: Again I'm cool as far as the seal is concerned. My idea is that a certain amount of gas passes by the stationary bullet, cutting it to some extent unless some kind of material prevents it. In using filler, be it T/P or cerial I find NO gas cutting on bullet bases. And of course the IGC bullets and normal GC bullets will not show cutting unless it is an extream case.

In any case, obturation has been accomplished by the filler material or check: No gas leakage, no bullet damage by gas cutting and no leading caused by condensation of vaporized lead ahead of the chamber.

A: The Quik Load program shows the bullet movement in inches before peak pressure is reached..

F: That sounds like an interesting program.

A: Below is a obturation picture of three 20-1 alloy 45 caliber slugs per Mike Lewis. Mike told me obturation is certain with BLK loads until the alloy hardness reaches Lyman #2 alloy or 15 bhn. Obturation is less at this hardness and above is very minor. These slugs BTW foreshortened around .025" if I remember the response from Mike correctly..

F: The picture is good, but I can't claim that I can see the shortening of either the base band or bullet over-all length. In simular tests I have measured about the same shortening or "slumping" of the bullet after firing over a full-power load so I'm a believer.

In shooting Black I have been told that the column of black power itself serves as "filler", preventing gas cutting and making obturation a sure thing right from the start.

I might just add that I think (unverified) that the grease grooves will compress or slump to some degree unless they are supported by lube. On account of this thinking I always make sure all my grooves are filled to the max (no air bubbles or gaps) before I seat the bullets: I don't want the bullets to slump unevenly!

Good afternoon,
Forrest

"F: The picture is good, but I can't claim that I can see the shortening of either the base band or bullet over-all length. In simular tests I have measured about the same shortening or "slumping" of the bullet after firing over a full-power load so I'm a believer"

Forrest if you look closely at the rear lube groove and compare it to others on the same bullet and the rear lube groove on the bullet just rt of it it appears that space is less due to compression. Mike said average shortening of the slug was only .025".

My idea with hardening slugs and preventing obturation is about the same effect shooten jacketed slugs amounts to. If that'll work better remains to be seen, but did shoot better in my gun with the same loading.

Softer alloys due have more grip or 'tackiness' if you will. Try using ww alloy for a barrel clamp and then try pure lead. The latter just holds better-- maybe due to more complete compression I dunno..

The test is ready-- I have nose sized the LBT and the Lee for a test. Hope to find out tomorrow.

Did you get my addy per a PM here? I pasted in your Ya-hoot addy and got a 'can't deliver message' via an e mail.

You must fly daily??

Aladin,

A: If you look closely at the rear lube groove and compare it to others on the same bullet and the rear lube groove on the bullet just rt of it it appears that space is less due to compression. Mike said average shortening of the slug was only .025".

F: Yes. I have measured bullets the very same way and found the same/similar shortening in both grooves and overall length.

A: My idea with hardening slugs and preventing obturation is about the same effect shooten jacketed slugs amounts to. If that'll work better remains to be seen, but did shoot better in my gun with the same loading.

F: Here I just seem to miss something.. Isn't "obturation" the complete plugging of the bore with bullet? Or is it something else altogether? Dictionary is no help.

I've been thinking all this time that obturation was the full and complete filling of barrel bore with lead slug; therefor the more complete obturation is the better the seal, the better the bullet and so forth.

If preventing obturation is a good thing we may not be reading off the same page at all.

A: The test is ready-- I have nose sized the LBT and the Lee for a test. Hope to find out tomorrow.

F: Good stuff.

A: Did you get my addy per a PM here?

F: Nope. No address, no personal email.

I'll double-check your file and be sure I didn't miss something.

A: You must fly daily?

F: Nearly. Today I was busy teaching one of our airtaxi pilots, then I had two FAA Inspector Pilots who needed recurrent training in some of the airplanes I operate. It took from 0600 until 1520 with a 20 minute lunch to get it done.

Now, its home and rework the front sight dovetail on the Stevens 44 1/2.

Good evening,
Forrest

The first run of the Lee 500 and the LBT .460 SP1R above.

-- top left. Lee's not presized cept the nose made .453 ish, second band .455 and 3-4th band going .459. Midland Q seated 3.08" OAL. 2 lube grooves filled making .4 grs in this recut mold for lube capacity. 21 grs of 4759 with Fed 210M's. My lube.

-- top rt. LBT's nose sized .453 ish, second band .455 balance at .459+ ?. Same chg wt, 210's seated ? for OAL. 2 lube grooves filled- Bullet Q, not wt'd.

--bottom left. Air cooled, .459-- nose sized .452, second band .455- balance at cast dia. Same chg, 210's. Q midland.

--bottom rt. Heat treated and sized .457 then nosed .453 ish. Same loading. Four in one a hole, left impact 'me', other ?? who knows. Bullets not scaled...

Appeared to a mild wash [leading] in the throat area but toweling wrapped around the brush made the bore shiney.

Next step-- first rate for Q [quality] bullets, figuring a precise OAL for these nose sized and upping the chg slightly as this is one of the first instances I've seen of kernels of 4759 unburnt in the bore. All groups at 100 yds.

My 'pipe' appears to want bore ride for alignment.

F: Here I just seem to miss something.. Isn't "obturation" the complete plugging of the bore with bullet? Or is it something else altogether? Dictionary is no help.

A. Your correct on the definer. Yet methods other than obturation are feasible in some combinations. Hardening that bearing surface per heat treatment aids grip for the rifling in a marginal bore like mine. If the thing is being swaged down to groove dia it prevents the possible bending of the slug by obturation-- something methinks is happening in some bores where the machining is not 100%. Like possibly my 'pipe'.

F: Nope. No address, no personal email.

I'll double-check your file and be sure I didn't miss something.

A. I've sent two now Forrest. They usually send a notification by e. Have you got that feature enabled? Would think so due to the icon showing in your posts.

F: Nearly. Today I was busy teaching one of our airtaxi pilots, then I had two FAA Inspector Pilots who needed recurrent training in some of the airplanes I operate. It took from 0600 until 1520 with a 20 minute lunch to get it done.

A. Cool... sounds interastin'.

F.Now, its home and rework the front sight dovetail on the Stevens 44 1/2.

A. How does that gun group say at say 100 and at extended range-- ideal conditions?

Good evening,
Forrest

Pleasant Eve to you too Forrest.
Jay.

[ 03-14-2003, 03:51: Message edited by: aladin ]

Good evening gentlemen-

Not to distract from your discussion about the advantages to sealing of the bore - but it was my understanding that the definition of obturation as relates to bullets is that it is an upsetting of the base area of the bullet due to pressure which exceeds the tensile strength of the alloy causing it to mechanically flow similarly as would occur in a swaging operation.

If pressure is sufficient - the base upsets until its deformation is arrested by containment provided by the bore. In this case, further escape of powder gas pressure from behind the base would be stopped by the bullet alloy filling the available escape pathway and is the objective for loads not employing some other mechanism (wads, IGC's, etc.) It is also my understanding that bullet designs that fill the throat as much as possible prior to primer/powder ignition are used to (nearly) accomplish this goal without depending on exceeding the tensile strength of the alloy to achieve the desired seal.

This definition of obturation humbly submitted for your consideration. If I am mistaken - please instruct me!

Thank you-

Sky

BPCR at MSN

Check this thread out per the Lee with Black Powder...

Aladin:

A: (You're) correct on the definer. Yet methods other than obturation are feasible in some combinations. Hardening that bearing surface per heat treatment aids grip for the rifling in a marginal bore like mine..

F; Sky has added some helpful stuff in his post above. Thanks.

You keep mentioning your "marginal" bore/barrel. Shallow rifling, rough rifling? Whats the trouble?

In my Bison barreled 44/63 the rifling is only 0.0023 deep in a side. This has never been a problem at all once I got the right bullet for the barrel from David Mos.

Remember that Doc Mann proved that bullets will grip the barrel and aquire spin if there is so much as spirial marks left in the bore by a piece of emery cloth: You don't need much to get things rotating!

A: How does that gun group say at say 100 and at extended range-- ideal conditions?

F: The 44/63 Stevens is new; untried except as a 22RF indoors.

The 44/63 on the FBW is well proven at all distances and I have no reason to think that the 44 1/2 won't shoot as well or better.

The FBW shoots into 1 1/5" reliably for the typical 5 shot group. When I say "reliably" I mean it. It'll shoot the same for days, weeks, even the whole summer without cleaning or any other care beyond wiping off the dust or acumulated bullet grease as the season wears on.

I never clean these rifles unless I make some terrible mistake like getting dirt in the bore.

My best groups at 500 meters go about 10 shots for 11 inches or so. I've found it very difficult to shoot group at 500 (hard to see holes) and so have not done a great deal of it.

The final test for a rifle/load around here is the 24" diamond we have at 834 yards. At that distance two minutes of angle is about 17 1/2 inches or so, giving a fellow only 4 inches or less for changes in condition. (Diamonds are very tough to hit, even when compared to the exact same steel set to form a square)

The 44/63 is capable of hitting this target in the flat condition quite easily. The problem is in seeing the target itself through the sights, also, the slight instability inevitably encountered from shooting off the cross stick rest makes it impossble to hit every time. I think if we went to a bench with a scoped rifle it would be possible to clean it 10 or more shots in a row.

Good evening,
Forrest

Methinks Forrest that bore ride experiment of mine is working out. Alignment is the thing and this produces such. Next trip the bullet Q is being more closely inspected.

If you look at the target where the four are going into the same hole, these are hard bullets with two flyers. The left flyer I think I had a hand in- the right one might have been due to bullet setback at chambering. Not sure though. Those noses were 453 going into a 4515+ land height. The slugs won't extract unfired either. I chg'd the next nose dia testing to 452 hoping to eliminate any potential bullet setback by the land height [which isn't planned for].

Do I wanna process my slugs in this manner all the time?? No, but making a 3 and 4 dia slug is sorta like R&D for what mold to cut for this barrel-- IF I do such.

Aladin:

A: Methinks that bore ride experiment of mine is working out. Alignment is the thing and this produces such. Next trip the bullet Q is being more closely inspected..

F: Well, so far so good. Consistency testing is on down the line a bit of course; one can tell only so much from the first 20 or 50 shots.

You keep mentioning your "marginal" bore/barrel. Shallow rifling, rough rifling? Whats the trouble?

In my Bison barreled 44/63 the rifling is only 0.0023 deep in a side. This has never been a problem at all once I got the right bullet for the barrel from David Mos.

Remember that Doc Mann proved that bullets will grip the barrel and aquire spin if there is so much as spirial marks left in the bore by a piece of emery cloth: You don't need much to get things rotating!

Tomorrow is the big 100 shot offhand Scheutzen Match here. After that I'll be turning my attention towards outdoor shooting, consintrating on the new Stevens in 44/63 Ballard.

This rifle has a Montana Rifleman barrel from up in Kalispell. It also has semi-shallow grooves, only 0.003 deep and smaller than the Bison barrel on the FBW.

This is my second Rifleman barrel, the other in on the Ballard in 45/70. Both show very, very light tooling marks on the top of the lands. I have found that this does not affect accuracy or the barrel's potential for leading at all. In fact it may just IMPROVE the barrel's ability to hold lube in place for each succeeding shot.

Good morning,
Forrest

F: Well, so far so good. Consistency testing is on down the line a bit of course; one can tell only so much from the first 20 or 50 shots.

A: I agree on the 30-50 shots, yet this is the first time the LBT has GROUPED in this gun. All the rest were patterns-- safest thing on the target was the bullseye.. Methinks four in a hole is an indication something is starting to go my way though. That tight matching of the rider means alignment-- the first rule with cast.

F: You keep mentioning your "marginal" bore/barrel. Shallow rifling, rough rifling? Whats the trouble?

A: This is the same bore I've posted on for the last several months here per the 45/70. Shallow rifling, which I think is getting TOO smooth. Remember... oval holes at 300 etc. Methinks some of that mighta been LUBE??

IMO when a bore has to be slowed down to group well the driving side of the lands must be going..

F: Remember that Doc Mann proved that bullets will grip the barrel and aquire spin if there is so much as spirial marks left in the bore by a piece of emery cloth: You don't need much to get things rotating!

A: I'm not a fan of Mann. Haven't read and don't intend to. How can any conclusions be drawn from a gun shooten a bullet sans ANY rifling in those cut off bores?? Granted a rifling depth barely measured might impart some spin, but for it's potential accuracy you'd be wasting components shooten it.

F: This is my second Rifleman barrel, the other in on the Ballard in 45/70. Both show very, very light tooling marks on the top of the lands. I have found that this does not affect accuracy or the barrel's potential for leading at all. In fact it may just IMPROVE the barrel's ability to hold lube in place for each succeeding shot.

A: Yeup- some 'roughness' might well facilitate lube accumulation at the surface level of the steel. Depends on the lube though IMO.

Aladin,

A: I agree on the 30-50 shots, yet this is the first time the LBT has GROUPED in this gun..

Methinks four in a hole is an indication something is starting to go my way though. That tight matching of the rider means alignment-- the first rule with cast.

F: OK. I know what you mean about four in a hole. I call it "trying to shoot" .. you know you're getting close to something good.

A: This is the same bore I've posted on for the last several months here per the 45/70. Shallow rifling, which I think is getting TOO smooth.

F: Just curious you understand: How shallow are they?

A: IMO when a bore has to be slowed down to group well the driving side of the lands must be going..

F: I have expierience with worn rifling in the small-bore 30'06. If anything I own would have wear on the driving side this rifle would and it shoots cast bullets very well.

A: I'm not a fan of Mann. Haven't read and don't intend to..

F: The book "The Bullet's Flight" is over-rated, I'll sure grant you that, but everyone has their own point of view. Mann, who must have been passing strange, wrote stuff worth reading if only because we are all riflemen together.

A: Yeup- some 'roughness' might well facilitate lube accumulation at the surface level of the steel. Depends on the lube though.

F: Sure. I have been burning Javelina for some years now. Nothing special, just inexpensive and available.

Today has been a good day of shooting up at our indoor range where we fired the 100 shot offhand Scheutzen Match. This is done with 22RF only, lever guns or singleshots with iron sights.

I did well enough that I deceided not to bury my rifle in the back yard after I was done shooting. This is a good thing since its pretty muddy back there and all the frost is not yet out of the ground.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

F: Just curious you understand: How shallow are they?

A: Nearest I can figure, this bore is 4562 by 4515+. This experience has stopped me from mounting a Marlin micro 30 cal blank on my 700. Shallow I've heard has a short accuracy life-- I might believe some of that later on.

F: I have expierience with worn rifling in the small-bore 30'06. If anything I own would have wear on the driving side this rifle would and it shoots cast bullets very well.

A: Mine too. The leade gets worn and more gradual in angle which is favorable to cast.

F: The book "The Bullet's Flight" is over-rated, I'll sure grant you that, but everyone has their own point of view. Mann, who must have been passing strange, wrote stuff worth reading if only because we are all riflemen together.

A: I'm an experimenter at heart myself, but drawing conclusions from experiments takes an open mind and a critical nature methinks. I've read so many humorous conclusions per shooten experiments... it's hard to pin on variable down often.

F: Sure. I have been burning Javelina for some years now. Nothing special, just inexpensive and available.

A: My messing with lubes is just another angle on messing with the process. I have an additive I use which appears to work ok. But needs testing against other lubes..

F: Today has been a good day of shooting up at our indoor range where we fired the 100 shot offhand Scheutzen Match. This is done with 22RF only, lever guns or singleshots with iron sights.

I did well enough that I deceided not to bury my rifle in the back yard after I was done shooting. This is a good thing since its pretty muddy back there and all the frost is not yet out of the ground.

A: Today I cleaned the garage, cut table top pieces for some of her outdoor tables, hauled dirt for planting pots, planted grape seeds... you get the idea. A honey-do day---I have no complaints.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Good Evening
Jay

Forrest next time you log on, click on 'My Profile' at the page top.

Aladin,

A: Nearest I can figure, this bore is 4562 by 4515+..

F: That is kind of shallow, but not too bad. My Bison barreled 44 is 0.4292 X 0.4250, giving me just over 0.002 depth on a side. This has never caused me any problems. If I hadn't measured this barrel I would never have known there was anything unusual about it at all.

A: Shallow I've heard has a short accuracy life-- I might believe some of that later on..

F: Perhaps if a fellow were shooting lots of jacketed this would matter. In the cast bullet game I've not been able to measure any wear in the 40/65 barrel I now use on the M1895.

This barrel began life on the Red Willow Ballard in the same chambering some time ago and on the Ballard I ran a (counted) 12,000+ rounds through it. When I rebarrel the Ballard to 45/70 I saved the take-off barrel and put it on the Marlin that had begun life as a 45/70.

I may just take this rifle to Quigley this year. It sure is fun to shoot even though I have more advanced single shot rifles built for the game.

Good evening,
Forrest

Aladin,

Are you there?

Good morning,
Forrest

Yes Forrest. Had a long day. Took another two dozen pine trees otta the yard. I'm bushed.

Think I've got that 'pipe' dialed in.... I'll de-tale when I can keep my eyes open.

Bedding the forearm on my 'pipe' for consistent accuracy is where a good deal of the 'slippage' is in this gun. I have folded aluminum foil pads under that wood forearm after first completely relieving the the wood to barrel contact. Had the forearm off the other day and didn't replace those shims correctly-- and of course the gun went vertical right off with it's load. Replacing them in correct position returned the groups to about two holes width at 100. I am going to bed that area, probably using pads of bedding vs complete for some air around the steel with an eye towards more efficent cooling. Think that's worth the effort for cooling?

And I've shimmed the pivot hanger on the barrel closing up any play which has developed from wear. This factor I proved out experimenting recently-- the gun has to lock up so the barrel can't move side to side.

Nose sizing to .4522 on the bullet front driver is essentially making a 3-4 dia tapered slug. That now bore ride area goes tightly into the land height which is .4515+. Alignment appears to be good using this setup-- even the modified Lee mold is showing promise but the resized 457125's shoot by far the most consistent. This gun does not appear to tolerate any OAL too long as to produce tension against the breech face, least ways this is my preliminary conclusion shooten the Lee 500 3R. I think if I tinker the OAL down that slug will start showing like the Lyman.

I've considered putting a file together for the Buff in it's final version, but doubt the interest is there. It looks now like some iron sights are in order.... finally.

Aladin,

A: Bedding the forearm on my 'pipe' for consistent accuracy is where a good deal of the 'slippage' is in this gun..

F: Bedding?

When I began shooting the singleshots I found that I had departed from all the conventional wisdom about bedding I learned when shooting bolt guns: None of my "Buffalo" rifles are bedded beyond normal and reasonable wood/metal fitting at the forarms.

Perhaps it might help but I have not done it since the rifles all shoot very well without this extra procedure.

In use on the firing line you will see folks doing the darnest things with their barrels slung in the leather of cross-stick rests by various means. I see that and I am amazed, yet, these fellows shoot very well, winning matches and never worrying at all about how barrel harmonics and so forth are in question by such techniques. Bedding? They wouldn't consider it and apparently don't need any.

A: I am going to bed that area, probably using pads of bedding vs complete for some air around the steel with an eye towards more efficent cooling. Think that's worth the effort for cooling?

F: Nope. I wouldn't bother.

In shooting these rifles heat buildup is something of a problem during hot summer days. Some rifles do have serious troubles, all will pick up some leading when used in the heat but if they shoot well cool, they'll hold their own in the heat.

My personal "fix" is the IGC. This addition eliminates all leading and gives me extra confidence when the barrel is too hot to touch.

A: It looks now like some iron sights are in order.... finally.

F: Good! Very traditional too!

Good morning,
Forrest

Forrest remember I'm shooten a lite wt barrel. The tube on this Buff Classic is well under normal dimensions usually seen on the muzzle of these types of guns. I do think some degree of whip can be minimized with some bedding. How that'll exactly shake down I dunno. Up to now I've settled on shims to rest the barrel on in two pts. I might stay with that system.

Gotta try nose sizing some more Lee 3R's and shorten the OAL. Methinks that one will shooten too...

Yeup-- I'm anxious for some irons too. Shot my 03 at 600 yesterday doing around 1900 and change. Found the zero readily and gave that clay bird in the pit some anxious moments...

We should go over the posts on MSN per the stability issues with those two slugs.

Aladin,

A: Remember I'm shooten a lite wt barrel. The tube on this Buff Classic is well under normal dimensions usually seen on the muzzle of these types of guns..

F: AH! That rifle is on the light side of good. But then my 45/70 Ballard only goes to 11 pounds 7 ounces..

A: We should go over the posts on MSN per the stability issues with those two slugs.

F: You've been over there I see. I haven't yet this evening but that'll be my next stop.

There are some knowledgeable folks over there but I'm going to have to play the advocate for a bit before I'll be convinced a meer 0.030 difference in length is the answer to the 6" drop @ 1000!

Just an aside: Do you know why all staff tang sights are graduated in inches instead of degrees and minutes?

Good evening,
Forrest

A: Remember I'm shooten a lite wt barrel. The tube on this Buff Classic is well under normal dimensions usually seen on the muzzle of these types of guns..

F: AH! That rifle is on the light side of good. But then my 45/70 Ballard only goes to 11 pounds 7 ounces..

A: Mine goes only ten pounds.. with scope AND the buttstock filled with shot. Comes at a mere 8 pounds if that.

F: There are some knowledgeable folks over there but I'm going to have to play the advocate for a bit before I'll be convinced a meer 0.030 difference in length is the answer to the 6" drop @ 1000!

A: I thought his assumption was the lube groove design accounted for the added drop-- or did I read that wrong?

F: Just an aside: Do you know why all staff tang sights are graduated in inches instead of degrees and minutes?

A: So the average guy can figure them out??

Good evening,
Jay

"F: There are some knowledgeable folks over there but I'm going to have to play the advocate for a bit before I'll be convinced a meer 0.030 difference in length is the answer to the 6" drop @ 1000!"

Methinks Forrest the guy said 6 MOA or 60" at 1000??

[ 03-30-2003, 16:40: Message edited by: aladin ]

Aladin,

A: Mine goes only ten pounds.. with scope AND the buttstock filled with shot. Comes at a mere 8 pounds if that.

F: That is light for certain. Have you given some thought about getting anything bigger (heavier)? I figure you know plenty about what is out there already..

A: I thought his assumption was the lube groove design accounted for the added drop-- or did I read that wrong?

F: I'm thinking that there is something to do with the grooves to gives that 4-groove bullet of his some instability that the 2-groove doesn't have.

The man measures the yaw, and compares peformance well enough for expiermental purposes. I just can't see just 0.030 extra length causing all his instability and extra drop.

F: Just an aside: Do you know why all staff tang sights are graduated in inches instead of degrees and minutes?

A: So the average guy can figure them out??

F: Well, I was asked this same question by a fellow who has made an extra long sight staff for my Williams base, now mounted on my M1895 marlin in 40/65. He had automaticly graduated this staff in degrees and minutes, never having seen a production tang sight.

Now, when I first received the tall staff I was sort of amazed by the unfamiliar units but it didn't take me long to understand what was going on and I found I really liked it. Somehow, (my own problem no doubt) I have never cottoned on to how much I'm moving bullet impact down range as compared to sight movement with inches as units.. Well, sure, I pushed them around and had a working relationship when I was shooting: "So much here gives me that much there" kind of thing, but when I started thinking in minutes instead of "points" or hundredths it suddenly all came together much more clearly in my mind.

I was over to a shooting friends place here in town and I asked him the same question I just posed to you and soon we had a serious conversation going on. My friend said he thought that graduating in inches was logical. It made lots of sense to him since 0.010 of sight movement with a sight radius of 34� inches is one minute of angle and whats more, inches were ever so much easier to crank into the milling machine table as compared to degrees and minutes! It might take a little more effort and concentration to even consider any other unit of measure. I said that degrees and minutes are what is used to describe all ballistics in shooting; it made sense to use the same units on our sights as are used in tables and descriptions. We batted the subject back and forth for a bit and found no resolution but when I got my M1895 Marlin out and showed him degrees and minutes on the sight staff he was shocked and amazed that anyone could or would do such a thing!

"F: There are some knowledgeable folks over there but I'm going to have to play the advocate for a bit before I'll be convinced a meer 0.030 difference in length is the answer to the 6" drop @ 1000!"

A: Methinks Forrest the guy said 6 MOA or 60" at 1000??

F: Yes! Pardon my short hand, the (') symbol means minutes in all the navigation stuff seaman and pilots use: I hit the wrong key. You're right: The (") symbol means seconds; something we small arms shooters don't have to worry about.

Good evening,
Forrest