This is from the biggest shortest bullshitter on gun forums:

Larry Gibson posted this 6 minutes ago

The RPM Threshold where accuracy begins to be lost for GC'd ternary cast bullets, especially those with bore riding noses, that are conventionally lubed the RPM Threshold for best accuracy generally is going to fall between 120,000 to 140,000 RPM. The Threshold may be pushed up by manipulating some of the variables (alloy/BHN, powder burn rate, bullet design, quality of casting) and it also can be lowered, mostly with too soft an alloy, ill fitting bullets, poorly cast bullets, and too fast a burning powder.

"Usable" accuracy at shorter range can be had above the RPM Threshold. However, for best accuracy with linear group expansion out to longer ranges of 300 - 600 yards the load will be found within the RPM Threshold parameters.

LMG

He says this because he can't do it. Well larrrrrrry how about 189,000 rpm with the Saeco 6.5 bore riding bullet of 50/50 ww/lead alloy shot from an 8 twist AR10 into 1/4 inch groups.

Don't believe that guy or none of you will ever accomplish anything spectacular with cast bullets.

Oh I forgot to mention larrrrry that was with IMR 4064 and also IMR 4895. You don't know crap about shooting cast with fast powders. You have to rely on a 36 inch barrel with 16 twist and the Hubble telescope for optics and slow powder to be able to do anything.

Last, but not least, old Waco over on the CB forum is showing you up pretty bad with a plain Jane Remington 700 in 308 with nothing done to the rifle at all.

quote:

The RPM Threshold where accuracy begins to be lost for GC'd ternary cast bullets, especially those with bore riding noses, that are conventionally lubed the RPM Threshold for best accuracy generally is going to fall between 120,000 to 140,000 RPM. The Threshold may be pushed up by manipulating some of the variables (alloy/BHN, powder burn rate, bullet design, quality of casting) and it also can be lowered, mostly with too soft an alloy, ill fitting bullets, poorly cast bullets, and too fast a burning powder.

so it can be surpassed by doing the right things and not just throwing together whatever you got in the cupboard.
kind of like using eggs to make an omelet instead of flour.

Hee hee hee....... that runt is up to his bullshit again. Waco over on Cast Boolits made a fool of him doing what he said couldn't be done (on video no less) except by his methods. Some people have absolutely no clue and make up things to make themselves look good. If I couldn't shoot better than he does, it would be shameful.

This has gone on for years and spanned several forums, probably making Larry Gibson the most famous bullet caster of all times.

it's only taken 20 years for the rest of the world to catch up to what he already knew.

Lamar, that comes across as a compliment to Larry Gibson. Is that what you intended?

I took that as no compliment. Basically saying larrrrry is a know-it-all, it's his way or no way, and that he gleaned and plagiarized a high percentage of his material off of others that DID know the know how. Sounds like you're a fan of his??

vzerone--I've posted this before. Several years ago on the air gun section of this forum, Larry Gibson posted a story he wrote about scouting for elk with his buddy. The story was written in a way to show that he had aspirations of being a writer (not just a poster). Gibson had not been drawn for an elk but some of his friends had. He and one of the guys that had a tag were scouting out an area a week before season. For some unknown reason, Larry was carrying an air rifle. He had sat down overlooking a valley and soon elk were feeding in the area and a bull elk came into pretty close range. The elk had a mud clod stuck about the center of his kill spot. Gibson took aim and busted the clod. Purpose when asked was "it was the coup de grace". To me it was a totally stupid senseless act.
Numerous charges could be made from this totally stupid act. No license, closed season, illegal gun, harassing an animal, animal cruelty, probably several others. Enough charges that it would be a felony and he would no longer have gun ownership rights. To compound the issue, he was the game warden for the post where he was stationed.
Fan? I hardly think so.
I took Lamars post to mean he was 20 years ahead of everyone else.
BTW whether a person does or does not shoot cast bullets in a certain caliber into small groups is no big deal to me. It wont win you a Nobel prize. Certainly nothing I'd spend 20 years arguing about.

It's not the arguing thing carpetman1 it's that larrrry is full of BS and has ruined a lot of would be good cast shooters with his BS and his BS theories. Also he thinks his Oehler and strain gauge are the altimate final answer and supercede the real professionals. Ask him why ALL the load date compiled for reloading manuals is not compiled from strain gauge reading????? Last, but not least, he has run off everyone on the the CB forum that has opposed him. There were a lot of good and intelligent people on that forum at one time. You go over and tell me the percent of people posting you know. No doubt about larrrrry and the administrators are in bed with one another.

vzerone--I really could care less what he has done, how he did it, or what equipment he uses. To me, it's a so what? Cast bullets do have purposes. Are they going to replace jacketed bullets which mostly replaced them? I don't think so. Why would I hunt big game with a heavy, slower moving big bullet that has a rainbow trajectory, more limited distance, and a pretty stiff recoil when I could use a milder, flatter shooting jacketed bullet? Get more instant kill to boot which is what I want. Sure there is some nostalgia but there is even more with a bow if that's your thing.
Run me off a forum? He and I flamed on this one, over the dumb post I mentioned. I'm still here.

You needed to hang around me for a few years. I'd wise you up to the real cast bullet use and what they can really do. Now I do agree with that if cast were so great (as Waksupi so professes) why aren't the militaries of the world and all the hunters still using them? We know the answer to that. BTW you can push a 420 45-70 bullet to say 1440 fps, not hard on your shoulder and is a terrific deer killer. Sure it doesn't have the trajectory of a 22-250 but it's not as bad as you imagine. Remember those black powder shooters are shooting it much slower and clobbering silhouettes beyond 1000 yards with hits all the time. Let's just say it's not a mortar it's still a rifle.

vzerone, I started casting in 1967. Perhaps if I hung around you, I'd learn something about cast bullets. Yes you can get 1440fps you mentioned dead on at 100 and foot and half low at 200 and 5 1/2 feet low at 300. Sounds like a rainbow to me. You can read by candlelight, but is it really the best choice?

carpetman1 do you even own a 45-70. Like I said it's not a mortar and the sights easily handle the elevation adjustments and and you're really not elevating the muzzle as much as you think.

You know I was thinking about that unreal velocity you got with that 243 on your chronograph. If it was beyond the book reading that's telling you something was wrong. That something, which I don't believe to be an overload, is maybe the gas flash crossing the screen especially if you had the chrono close.

To your last statement why do you even bother with cast? You sound so negative about it. Just recently been working with a 6.5 Creedmoor using a 140 grain Saeco borerider. After a lot, and I mean a lot, of trial and error, I finally achieved a 1/4 inch group at over 2100 fps. Now tell me that's not useable.

What's your recipe on that Creedmoor load sir?

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
What's your recipe on that Creedmoor load sir?

I'm shooting 28 grains of IMR 4064 with .10 cc's of BPI original shot buffer. I have a pretty good assortment of brass Win, S&B, Hornady, and Federal. I like the S&B the best. I'm using both CCI and S&B large rifle primers. I've also upped it to 29 grains of IMR 4064 and it shot even better. You have to watch that 6.5 Creedmoor case as it's an ultra modern designed that was designed to keep most of the powder inside the case when it's burning by that special shoulder angle. Rick Jaminson talks about about this kind of case design. Anyways it builds pressure more then a standard design case and you can get into real trouble fast with it. I would imagine the 6mm Creedmoor is even more worse for that. I'm using an AR10 I build with stainless 5R rifling with an 8 twist.

vzerone--I never said why bother with cast. I said cast have their purposes. To me big game is not one of them. No, I don't have a 45-70--it's not one that flips my skirt so to speak.

I have a Win model 70 in .223 and with jacketed bullets it has shot my best group. It has not grouped cast bullets with anything I tried. But that's not a big deal to me. I have .222's and 22-250 that shoot cast. I'm not fretting over it and will not spend anymore time with it. If someone did come up with something that shoots one hole groups. Nice job, no really big deal, no Nobel prize. Really nothing to boast about for 20 years.

yeah your not getting a nobel prize for doing it.
however it is one hell of an accomplishment getting a plain lead bullet to throw holes in a piece of paper that rival or even beat a good copper wrapped unit and get them to do it at velocity's you'd see mentioned in a normal reloading book isn't easy.

it's a lot less easy doing it with an off the shelf rifle that has a 'sloppy chamber' a faster twist rate, a factory trigger, and a fairly poor fitting stock.

the issue everyone has with LG is when it is done he tells you you didn't do it and if you did do it in front of witnesses it is an anomaly rifle and you didn't do it in the next or the next rifle [you claim] to have done it with.
simply because you didn't break out the 9X12 glossy black and white photo's with the writing on the back and show them all to the judge.
or do it his way...
the way he ripped off from the others you know the ones he claims can't do it [nor probably don't even shoot] and are just internet experts.

now when they explain their method to someone else and give them a load and some bullets and they film it being done they are now not doing it right and he will be more than happy to tell them where to send their rifle to get a 14 twist barrel, and where to get a better alloy [you know the one he copied from the guy that sent the bullets] after 'much testing' and where to get the best lube after you know 'much testing' which was basically shooting other lubes and comparing them to the one he developed the loads with and then noted an anomaly of a lower velocity with those other lubes but not noting they slowed down his speeds and opened his groups.
ZERO effort given to bring things back in-line so a fair side by side comparison can actually be made.

if that's the 20 years ahead of himself your referring to.
then yeah he is way ahead of everyone else, way ahead of stealing their work and calling them liars and posers, even though he himself proved out their work.

maybe I will tell how I really feel about it in another post sometime.

Lamar, I get it. I just have a different view of it. Best example I can think of is my views on cars when I was a teen-ager. Most kids wanted a car that would outrun everybody else's car for a quarter of a mile. No big deal to me. They would tolerate loud pipes ( have had x number of excessive noise tickets--the more the better), gas guzzling (only gets so many miles to the gallon--the fewer miles the bigger the brag), rough idling, and blown engines ( will go back with all kinds of high dollar parts). The more they had to work on it because it had destructed from all that power, the bigger the brag.If they did outrun someone, it was a huge brag and made them own the world and be ten feet tall and bullet proof. If they had a car known for being slow that they souped up and won a race that was even better. Even back then I wanted an economical, smooth running car and didn't have an interest in a dragster.

Certainly it is an accomplishment to make a junker shoot well. Who knows, if you took a rifle in good shape and put the effort into it, might set a new record.

BTW, how do you really feel about it?

Thank you Vzerone for the recipe. I have a couple of 260's but have never tried Cast in them. What diameter is your bullets in the CreedMoor.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Thank you Vzerone for the recipe. I have a couple of 260's but have never tried Cast in them. What diameter is your bullets in the CreedMoor.

They are .265 after sizing. The Saeco mold drops them at about .266 with 50/50 alloy which is 50% wheelweights and 50% lead. I'm using a soap base lube that my cousin makes. He's been shooting it for about 15 years or more. It's similar to LBT Blue Soft, but much better. That LBT lube is very good though. Your barrel need to have a bore of about .256 in order for that Saeco bore rider to fit right. If the nose of the bullet easily enters the muzzle it's too small and not going to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Lamar, I get it. I just have a different view of it. Best example I can think of is my views on cars when I was a teen-ager. Most kids wanted a car that would outrun everybody else's car for a quarter of a mile. No big deal to me. They would tolerate loud pipes ( have had x number of excessive noise tickets--the more the better), gas guzzling (only gets so many miles to the gallon--the fewer miles the bigger the brag), rough idling, and blown engines ( will go back with all kinds of high dollar parts). The more they had to work on it because it had destructed from all that power, the bigger the brag.If they did outrun someone, it was a huge brag and made them own the world and be ten feet tall and bullet proof. If they had a car known for being slow that they souped up and won a race that was even better. Even back then I wanted an economical, smooth running car and didn't have an interest in a dragster.

Certainly it is an accomplishment to make a junker shoot well. Who knows, if you took a rifle in good shape and put the effort into it, might set a new record.

BTW, how do you really feel about it?

The car story must be a Texas thing. Oh we certainly did our bragging where I grew up, but we didn't brag about bad gas mileage and blow ups. That pissed us off. BTW you can tune a high performance (talking mild high performance not blown and that that crap) to get quite good mileage. Example: My cousin had a 65 SS Chevelle with a 327 Chevy small block in it. It was pumped up a little. Car was a 4 speed and the differential gears were 3.55's. It easily got over 20 mpg on the highway and about 18 town and highway.

You seem to make a big deal out of people that want to take something to the next level, such as the car story and as the cast shooting we're discussing. You can't hide it, for some reason it gets under your skin. If it didn't you wouldn't keep talking about it. Why can't you just accept it? Why can't you just accept people are the way they are and you're not going to change them? Not getting on you. Why don't you talk about your cast endeavors. We'd like to hear about it.

Me making a big deal of it? Hmmm 20 years later others STILL starting new posts about it. Tom's car beat Mikes 20 years ago. Big deal.

I don't hunt big game with cast. Nothing against those that do, not my cup of tea. I don't hunt with handguns, again not my thing, realize others enjoy it. I do enjoy plinking and target shooting with revolvers, more so plinking. I do have concealed carry automatic which I hope I never use. Probably should practice with it more, but find I can shoot revolvers more accurately. Don't think if ever needed in a defense situation I need to be an expert marksman--at that range close good enough.

I use to cull jackrabbits with .22 centerfires and cast bullets were the very best choice for that in my books for several reasons.

Ok someone shoots a good group with a worn out rifle. They say you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear---but somebody did. Just think if they had started with silk, they might have made a gold purse.

No, I don't think kids drag racing was limited to Texas.

Your cousin got good mileage, what would it have been if stock? Maybe that's like your telling me how good a 45-70 with a 500 grain cast is, but I still say that's a rainbow.

Did your cousin's car have loud mufflers?

Actually small block Chevys, stock, got decent mileage and not much better then the one I described. Another thing performance engines burn the gas mixture better and sometimes beat stock engines in emissions testing. Yes he had glass packs on, but the main reason is they restricted the exhaust flow less. Headers would have even been better, but he didn't have the money at that time for all the performance items. A major part of getting mileage out of any car is how you drive it. Someone once told us imagine you have an egg between your foot and the accelerator!!! Mileage will go up then. We both wish that the Government would allow the high mileage foreign diesel cars into the U.S., but the won't because the big oil companies have them by the balls.

I think what Lamar is talking about is not worn out guns, but guns with less then ideal dimensions. For your information many times the silk guns you speak of don't shoot all that good. Often it becomes a chore to get them to shoot as good as some of the old milsurps. Case in point is my 6.5 Creedmoor. It was the devil to get it to finally shoot. I find the old milsurps, like 03 Springfields, Krag, Mausers, easier to get gratifying results.

"Not worn out but less than ideal dimensions." Sounds worn out or cheaply made. Either way easier to get one of them to shoot than a well built or newer one?

Glass packs--I bet they made a noise he loved. To me it's an easy way to ruin an otherwise good car.

I have son in law with a Corvette. Most kids seemed to drool over them. To me uncomfortable and impractical. BTW SIL car has loud pipes, I hate riding in it. Guess that runs in the family, his wife (my daughter) wont ride in it.

BTW your big oil company story reminds me of an old Urban legend that's been around for years. Someone's uncles brother in laws friend bought a new car that they accidentally sold with an experimental carb on it and it got twice the expected gas mileage, but the big oil companies wont let them sell this carb. Have you heard that story? If not, you're probably in the minority. I've heard it several times over the years.

Actually if your tail pipes come straight out the back they aren't as loud. The sound is behind you and you're always moving away from it. Depends too what brand and type of glas pack you have. I love Corvettes too, but you're right about them. Harsh ride, uncomfortable, and other negatives.

Military rifles often have larger then standard dimensions then civilian equivalents to insure under all conditions. Things like the chamber may be on the larger size and grooves may be much deeper to name a few. Some of those old milsurps were far from cheaply made. I'm sure yourself have seen some really nice figured quality walnut on Mausers.

Interesting note. Being we are so conditioned to the new type cars with computer controlled fuel injects, better gaskets on the engines, and all kinds of emission controls...have you noticed if you get behind a mid 60's muscle car that has been restored how you can smell the gasoline and oil from it? Back in those days that's what everyone drove so you didn't notice. I never realized how much gasoline evaporated out of the carb. They are open to the atmosphere.

Vzerone--haven't been behind that many mid 60's muscle cars to notice the smell, but did know todays engines more efficient. Have noticed they go a lot more miles before wearing out. Also knew older cars have more condensation, unburned fuel or whatever dripping out.

Had you heard my urban legend story?

I have noticed at least here, I see more pickups with loud pipes now days than I do cars. They might not hear them as their hearing has been shot, but to me sitting out on my porch they are a nuisance when they drive by.

You mentioned your cousin a couple of times. Is he someone we might know?

I guess I can put some perspective on the car thing... LOL.
I happen to drive a Mustang.
about a week after I bought it many of the factory parts 'fell off' and were replaced immediately with others, some even made by Ford.
I slightly altered the ride height and the aerodynamic profile of the front end slightly.

my fuel mileage wet from 26 to almost 30 [average] and I gained about 35 hp in the process.
it never got any louder, unless you count the slight whine and sucking sound from under the hood.
I didn't change the throttle body, nor put any headers on it.
I just changed how the air flowed through the engine.
I want to change it even more but i can't find the right cam shaft combination to change the exhaust duration, wish I could I would pick up another 10 hp and maybe another MPG.
heck a slight gear change would also gain me a bit more and some more [very] top end speed in the process.
but lose me about a second in the quarter mile, since I don't drive 1/4 mile at a time it's not much of a concern.

now to relate the whole thing.
yep I modified it, not much, I ordered everything else I wanted from the factory and waited to get it.
but I changed it to suit my needs and wants.
not much different than changing my old Bronco with a new more torqey engine adding in some suspension parts to make it work better on the slick muddy ice covered and rutty mountain roads I drive it on.
neither one of those 2 vehicles will do anything the other will in any way shape or manner, they never could, and never were intended to.
and neither one of them can do the things my truck can do.

they all drive down the highway, they all get me from point A to point B, I can even haul firewood in them all but none of them will do it all well.

that doesn't mean I cant change that, I could easily make the truck go 160 mph or jack up the car for off road use, or change the Bronco around to run 11's in the 1/4 mile.
all I'm doing is making each one a bit more specialized through effort and time.

Now we can get back to bashing larrrry or whatever we were doing before carpetman1 intervened.

vzerone--You didn't mention if we know your unnamed cousin. Can we just call him Joe?

Intervened? Would I defend LG??? Do I think I can stop what's been beat to death for 20 years??

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Intervened? Would I defend LG??? Do I think I can stop what's been beat to death for 20 years??

Yes intervened like a little kid that wants to get in with what is going on. You're sitting on the fence. Either shit or get off the fence. Or better yet....just go away!

vzerone--I didn't hear about you buying this site from Saeed.

Maybe I was too hard on you carpetman1. Try to fit in would you?

You know you weren't posting much on here until I started this thread. Just what is your position on larrrrrryy?

What is my position on Larry? Didn't you read my post about his shooting an elk with an air rifle? I think he committed a felony and should lose his gun ownership rights. I wish he had committed that stupid act in let's say Yellowstone Park for example where it was witnessed. Probably one of those witnesses would have made LG wish he had left more lube on that air rifle. LG and I flamed big time over his idiotic post and never got along afterwards. If you didn't already have this one figured out perhaps a remedial reading class?


BTW how's cuz Joe doing?

He's doing just great and enjoying shooting and not arguing about it. Don't forget I wasn't on the forums as long as him so that elk shooting with a pellet gun is blurry. I don't believe it and that would be a major crime like you mentioned and very cruel and inhumane too!

VZ--Don't believe it? I haven't had that much experience with elk, but I've had deer feed in close enough to have been shot with an air rifle. Would take a very stupid idiot to do it. What's missing?

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
VZ--Don't believe it? I haven't had that much experience with elk, but I've had deer feed in close enough to have been shot with an air rifle. Would take a very stupid idiot to do it. What's missing?

What did he say happened after he shot it with the pellet rifle? You know I've met people that when they were teens that shot cows way off ith 22's. Said it really didn't hurt them. I didn't believe it didn't hurt them and I'd never do such a thing.

Don't recall specifically but guess it ran off. I'm sure his buddies that would be hunting there next week appreciated him spooking the herd.

The whole deal was written with lots of adjectives, trying to be the style of a professional writer.

The opener was something like: It was a crisp fall day and the sun was cascading through the quaking aspens of the Cathedral Mountains.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Don't recall specifically but guess it ran off. I'm sure his buddies that would be hunting there next week appreciated him spooking the herd.

The whole deal was written with lots of adjectives, trying to be the style of a professional writer.

The opener was something like: It was a crisp fall day and the sun was cascading through the quaking aspens of the Cathedral Mountains.

Oh from what I've seen his EXPERTISE doesn't just extend to shooting and reloading, but also to pen and paper!!!