I've fiddled with shooting cast bullets enough to have found accurate and not so accurate bullet/powder combinations. I really don't understand why this happens. I know this happens with jacket bullets, but it seems more pronounced with cast. Is there something I can read on this?

Aladin,

I'm a peestol shooter- have been for a long time- an' I keep threatening to get into casting for them centerfire long sticks. You recommend either neck sizing or partial sizing of a rifle case. What's the advantage?

Thanks and regards......

Bltsandwedge, being a peestol shooter, you should know that you should use titanium nitride or carbide dies and only size to just below where the base of a boolit reaches in the brass and no farther. Nuff said?

Aladin: I'm currently playing with a 45/70 - Marlin Guide Gun. I recently was playing with H322 and .460", 405gr bullets. I ended up driving the bullets way harder than planned - 1950fps. No leading/fouling/keyholing or other nastiness over a tring of 20 shots. Nice lube donut.

But the accuracy was mediocre.

So I'm wondering if there are properties of the bullet that cause it to be more accurate at a lower velocity and less accurate at a higher velocity. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die. Unfortunately the bullets are "as cast" and they are about .0005" out of round.

I'd like to educated on the primary, secondary and tertiary effects on accuracy. I appreciate the input.

Bitsandwedge,

One of the ideas of neck sizing for a bottlenecked rifle cartridge is that once the casing has been fired it fits your rifle chamber better. You see factory ammo or ammo full length sized is sized smaller then the chamber so that it fits a variety of different size chambers as they all can not be machined perfectly and exactly the same. So when you are holding your rifle horizonal for firing that smaller then the chamber cartridge is actually laying on the bottom of the chamber with a small amount of space above it. The concern with the accuracy seekers is that the bullet is not lined up dead center with the bore. Now you can see with neck sizing only the bullet is more centered in the bore then a full length sized cartridge.

The other theory is that neck sized casing last longer because they don't go through the stress of full length sizing and the brass doesn't get work hardened as much. Some informal tests have been done neck sizing one batch of brass and full length sizing another batch and firind and reloading both over and over to see which fails first. They usually come out about equal.

If you have a rifle capable of noticing small adjusts in accuracy tuning in reloading the ammo then usually neck sizing improves the accuracy. But for a regular sporting rifle used for hunting it's usually not noticed.

Another thing is if you neck size casing they may not fit another rifle of the same caliber because it's chamber may be smaller they the chamber they were fired in. Also after numerous neck sizing you must full length size to bring the case back into specs because they will eventually start to chamber a little tighter each time.

Now Bfrshooter said in a post here that with carbide sizer dies for pistol rounds that you only have to size far down as the bullet is going to be seated. That is incorrect. Just as the same in rifles cartridges laying on the bottom of chamber so do handgun cartridge. If you look at a fired casing near the webb at the bottom you will notice that a portion of it is bulged out and a smaller portion is not. The portion that is bulged out is the part of the cartridge that was the top horizonally upon firing so it expanded up until it hit the chamber wall. The portion that doesn't have a bulge was lying on the bottom of the chamber and thus didn't expand as much because it was already touching the chamber wall.
You must adjust your carbide or titaniun sizer far enough to remove the bulge but not far enough down to try and size the webb of the casing, nor should the shell holder ever contact the carbide or titanium sizer die as it may break it because both are very brittle. Again if you size only enough as Bfrshooter suggests your reloads may not fit another handgun of the same caliber.

Sorry this was so long

Joe

"educated on the primary, secondary and tertiary effects on accuracy"

Say what?? or who??

Just kidding.

How accurate is said gun with jacketed slugs with the same loading?? I seriously doubt any better.

Marlin micro's-- while being excellent cast barrels, tend to have large groove dia's. That bore might well be 460 or larger. Do you know the groove dia?

I bet that 1950 loading is hell on a shoulder especially with that lite guide gun??

"If you have a rifle capable of noticing small adjusts in accuracy tuning in reloading the ammo then usually neck sizing improves the accuracy. But for a regular sporting rifle used for hunting it's usually not noticed"

Joe I gotta disagree. Where this hinges on is how that sporters chamber is cut. If'n it's a thou or more otta round, yeup I'd tend to agree. But if the gun is machined a tall within specs, partial or neck sizing done to no runout will shoot better. Thing is-- most your hunters want reliable chambering for game so neck'n isn't in the game... unless your operating max is not enough to move the brass much.

If that case web is fire formed to almost chamber dimensions on the rear, the bullet is just within touching the rifling leade and loaded straight-- it has to shoot better... cause all FL sizing does is throw things back to a minimum and introduce runout.

If that sporter is a 2" gun-- fine it'll shooten alot of meat and no advantage to any system. But if it's under sub moa often fitted brass produces better accuracy.

Sporters of today are the most accurate they've ever been-- and also the most inaccurate too.

aladin: I slugged it once. Since I don't know how to make a piece of lead record the wide spots, I can tell you that the narrowest spot is .457".

Yes, the little Guide Gun makes itself known when firing those loads. I'm certainly not recommending that folks load it that hot. I had no load data for cast to start with so I reduced jacketed load data but misjudged.

Well here's the strange part. I can shoot sub-1 inch groups at 50yds (peep sights) with 52gr IMR3031 and Remington 405gr JSP (1700fps cold day and 1810fps hot day). I've never been able to get the same results yet with cast. I've tried two different .460" 405gr bullets and .459" 500gr bullets. The .459" 500's keyholed after 5 shots at 1400fps, so now I use them as 750fps "plinkers" (7.5gr Clays - no filler).

I get the feeling that I need to slow the cast way down to get equivalent jacketed accuracy. But I'm not sure I understand much at about shooting cast yet.

Dla, the first thing I would do with your Marlin guide gun is to slug the bore, find out the groove diameter and if it is or is not a micro-groove. Bullet fit is everything with cast boolits, and selecting the right burn rate of powder for the velocity that you want is second. Having had a Marlin 1895 some years ago, I can say that good hunting accuracy was obtainable. Mine had the so-called modified micro groove, I think it was 12 groove instead of the usual 16. I too was enamoured of obtaining high velocity but soon found that better accuracy was found around 1600fps, using IMR 4198 or something similar. Was a lot easier on the anatomy also. I think that a 400 grain boolit at 1600 is pretty close to the old 45-90 loading, and it was considered a good elk killer in its day.

Regards from duke.

The Ideal Handbook #17 of 1906 showed two basic factory loads for the .45-90, a 300gr. lead, soft point or "full patch" bullet at 1480 FPS, or a high velocity with a 300 gr. soft point or "full patch" at 1925 FPS. My mild loads with the 340 gr. Gould HP are at the same velocity as the standard .45-90 300 gr., and I've loaded 405 grain bullets to nearly the H.V.'s velocity. Magnumitis has crept into the old black powder calibers, as well.

It's also interesting to note that essentially all the sporting cartridges were available with the "full patch" or FMJ bullet in 1906. They must have been popular with hunters who wanted lots of penetration.

I've slugged the barrel. My barrel has 6 grooves - ballard rifling. I'm familiar with Micro-groove in other calibers. The tight spot is .457".

I know the chamber of a Marlin, my Marlin, is not very tight. And it is very difficult to seat .460" bullets straight without "the bulge". I wonder if a different seating die/ neck expander would help?

This problem with cast accuracy in 45/70 is a common one and comes from having standard dies and generous rifle chambers.

My Sharps 45/70 was printing 3.5" groups with 535gn cast untill I examined just what was going on. Firstly the Lyman die was sizing the case too much. I glued 3 strips of soft leather into a F/L sized case, coated this with diamond lapendry paste and took nearly 3 thou out of the die body.

Next the expander was measured and found to be 454. After expanding the case I got a finished internal neck of 4525. I was therefore getting 1.5 thou of spring back in the case neck. I made a new one 4595 that finishes the inside of the case neck 458.

My bullet casts 4595 and I don't size them. So now I seat a 4595 bullet into a 458 neck and accuracy has improved considerably.

I have 1x10 shot group at 100yds that is 1.25" with 8 into one ragged hole and 2 fliers. The minimum neck tension will still hold a bullet firmly enough that it is difficult to pull with your fingers but can be pulled with pliers. For use in a Marlin the bullet could be crimped into the case.

I have found the same problem with my 40/65 Win dies (403 expander) but the 50/70 Lyman sizer dies and expander(512) are perfect size as supplied.

Neck sizing and seating boolits into the lands has to do more with concentricity than anything else as far as a cast boolit goes. The caveat to that is that the chamber and bore must be concentric. Get everything lined up (and locked up squarely). The leade and barrel are a swaging machine, so the ongoing discussion of a tight spot is right on. (This also follows in a revolter where the chambers mouths in the cylinder are restricted.) Now, that said, I have shot bottled neck rounds with visible runout and cammed in when the bolt was closed that shot very well, but mostly not. Because of this I have developed over the years my own idiosincrisies for prepping and loading that include inside lubing case mouths before neck sizing when the bell of the neck sizing die can actually distort the brass in a manner unintended. More recently I have taken to using Lee collect neck sizers that seem to reduce runout, as advertized. Gotta remember there are three things - equipment, ammo, and shooter. A quality barrel on a quality action, set up correctly, CAN make a difference. I hope I don't sound preachy. Of course, other things enter into this, such as bollit shape, size, weight, square of the base and check, neck tension, etc. sundog

dla, Two "must reads" for CB shooters are Lyman's "Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd Ed." and Veral Smith's "Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets." Although the Lyman handbook is somewhat dated, it provides you with a good foundation for casting & shooting CB's. Smith's book builds on that foundation. Btw, he's in Moyie Springs, ID; perhaps someone here can give you the P.O. box & zipcode. ...Maven

Barrels??? 55 gallon or larger??

The Sundog touches on your likely problem-- that tight spot. Bullet gets swaged at the tight spot and then enters the larger area where it slugs the rifling to some degree. Accuracy goes to he** then. Poor barrels per internal dimension only produce accuracy by accident......

If you read the Shooters archives I've posted tons on dealing with that problem.

[ 11-05-2003, 17:47: Message edited by: aladin ]

Buy this book!

http://www.hanned.com/lbt/book.htm

There are other good references around but this one is a must have.

The greatest asset to my cast bullet experiments, is a bullet trap that does not deform bullets. That way you really see what happens to a bullet in the barrel. I have a 4inch plastic pipe, 7 feet long, in two pieces. It is filled with coarse sawdust. I fire over chronograph, into the pipe, then separate the two pieces, and pour out the lower section into a box with 1/4 inch screen. The bullet is sifted out and examined. Then you get to see if there is blow by, skidding or off center. If bullets are in great shape, they should shoot good. All bullets should be weighed befor lubing and sizing.

Bad Ass Wallace:

BA: I have found the same problem with my 40/65 Win dies (403 expander) but the 50/70 Lyman sizer dies and expander(512) are perfect size as supplied.

F: You write a good post about this subject, thanks

I'd like to digress/expand the subject a bit to ask about your 50/70 shooting.

I have the idea to build a 50/90 this coming "off" season and am looking on-line for fellows who have already seen and solved some of the 50 caliber questions I have yet to encounter.

So far I have been recommended to get a fast twist 50 barrel from Montana Rifleman, about 20:1 is the current thinking, to stabilize the long 675 grain fifty caliber bullets I intend to shoot for the 1000 yard matches in my area.

This requirement, in turn, will require me to consider a rather heavy gun to soak up recoil. I'm thinking about a rifle in the 16 pound range so far.

How have you found shooting your 50?

And! I am very glad to see Aladin's posts again. Welcome back!

Good morning,
Forrest

Thank you folks for the information. I'm thinking of doing the following:

(1) Take a good look at my dies to see what they are doing.

(2) Hand lap (ugh) my barrel.

(3) Send $25 to Idaho for a book.

Great post Joe, thanks. When time allows I will get into shootin' the long sticks....and like my peestols, I can't imagine owning a gun that can't give the very best accuracy possible. In short, the only reason I want to have for crappy shooting is me. As for the pistol cartridge sizing, the Dillon is set to within 2/10" from the base for both autos and revolvers....'cuz I do have a variety of guns in the same calibers. Example, if I size a .38 wc just half way down the case, it will not chamber reliably in a finely tuned S&W 64- but the 14 and 19 will happily eat them all day. As far as pistol accuracy is concerned, all my shooting is offhand-and me with high blood pressure makes for a pretty unstable platform. I'll overcome that deal before reeeeely getting into pistol cartridge bore alignment......

Thanks again Joe......

bitsandwedge,
You're very welcome...but I knew that you knew to size pistol cartridges more then just enough to hold the bullet.

Aladin...I agree with what you said about sporter hunting rifle. They are amazingly accurate nowadays. But I have to disagree with you in the respect that necksizing for them may not have enough of an advantage over more important reliable chambering ammo like you said. I don't see necksizing shrinking groups in a hunting rifle by inches...it's in fraction of inches. If you have a rifle that shoots say 1 3/4 groups and neck sizing brings it down to 1 1/2 it isn't going to make one iota of difference in bringing down your deer. Now I don't classify a heavy barrel varmint rifle in the typical sporter hunting rifle class. The quarry you are after with it are also alot smaller then a deer. Now all this is negated if you are an accuracy nut like myself and want every bit of accuracy possible out of your rifle.

Joe

Aladin,

Where did I say it'd reduce groups by inches?? da...

Nevermind...

First let me say that I can tell and know that you are an experienced reloader. Okay here in lies the problem that you have to be top dog, that you insist that everyone in the world necksize. You didn't say that it reduced group sizes by inches. I pointed that out to show that for the average hunter he's wasting his time just neck sizing. If a fellow is just a beginner reloader or just an average reloader and all he wants is to make ammo for his hunting rifle, full length sizing dies is all he needs, and yes we know that he doesn't have to size the casing all the way into the die by having the shell holder meet the die. So get off your high stool and let it be.

Joe

aladin : There are 4 tight spots. The first one is about 2 inches past the chamber where the nomenclature is stamped on the barrel. Now moving towards the muzzle they are: rear sight dovetail, forearm cap dovetail, and magazine tube dovetail. It "feels" like the rearsight dovetail restriction is slightly tighter than the lettering restriction.

I'm not sure what else I can do other than lap it.

Aladin and dla,
I'd be afraid that firelapping might make the ok portions of the bore bigger along with opening up the tight spots. I would be best to try to just lap out the tight spots. I think it really sucks that in every position that something was done on the barrel, in this case the nomenclature and dovetails, constricted the bore. Wonder if there would be any chance that Marlin would rectify this problem. Whenever I've dealt with them they seemed like a cooperative company. Might be worth a phone call to them. Here's their phone number it you wish to try that 800-544-8892

Joe

Starmetal, if you are getting a bulge on one side of your brass, your chamber is way oversize. I get no bulges even with my Super Blackhawk with generous chambers. You are correct in saying the brass can only be used in the gun it was fired in and I keep all of mine separate.
The carbide and nitride sizers are made to size the neck portion to correct dimensions and are really too small to force down to the base. This really overworks the brass and stretches it too much. To correctly full length size a case, use a standard full length die which has a slight taper. Buy and read Veral Smith's book, Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets. I know it works from shooting IHMSA for years. I also have a bunch of pop cans in the basement shot with a .44 Super Redhawk at 200 yds. I also won the Ohio state silhouette match, production international class with 79 out of 80 hits using a Super Blackhawk. I won the .22 state with 59 out of 60 with a Ruger mark II, shooting cheap WW Wildcat ammo. If you or anyone here will E-mail me, I will send you instuctions on how to get accuracy from a revolver. I can hit pop cans all day with the Blackhawk at 100 yds from Creedmore position and it has almost 60,000 rounds through it. And thats just one of the piles of .44's I've owned. We are going to have to differ on this sizing issue, but I will never change how I do it.

DIA, you might want to try a faster powder in the 45-70 with cast bullets. 4198 or even 4759 with some dacron filler. Cast bullets are very SLIPPERY compared to jacketed and do not offer enough resistance to the powder burn if you use a slow powder. You can tell how the powder is acting by seeing how dirty the bore gets and if you have unburned powder in the bore. Work for moderate velocity. Anything you throw out of that gun is much more then any deer can stand.

bfrshooter,

I never said that you size all the way to base with the carbide or titanium nitrate sizing dies.
Most instructions that come with various manufacture dies of this type tell you not to size to the base in fact. RCBS's intructions for carbide dies is as follows: Run the ram all the way up with the proper shell holder. Then screw the carbide sizing die down until it lightly contacts the shell holder. Do not let the ram cam over on the shellholder and die as the die might be damaged. Well, I think that is even too far down in my honest opinion. Reddings instructions seemed more reasonable and they said only size enought to size out the expanded walls of the cartridge and don't size into the web area and by no means go as far as the base. So I don't know where you got I said size to the base with such type dies.

I got a Smith&Wesson Model 25, old model with pinned barrel, and 8 3/8's barrel in 45 Long Colt. I shoot the RCBS 255 SWC cast out of it over 9.0 gr of Unique. I too can hit soda cans all day long with that gun..and quite a few other handguns I have.

We don't really differ on sizing.

Joe

dla..I love your post!! I truly do. Your concern is what drives all of us cast bullet nuts. It is something of a Holy Grail with so many variables that it is a lifelong quest. You will find some facts and alot of opinion. There is no one book, no one guru, that has all of the answers. Read everything you can get your hands on, listen to veteran cast bullets shooters and experiment, experiment experiment to verify the truth of what you read and hear. When you are an old man in "the home" you still won't have all of the answers. You will have some, but will have had a hell of alot of fun in the process. Maybe you are "the one" who is to come and lead us into all wisdom. Could be!

Charger, well said. We all have things that work that won't work for someone else. Some rifles wont shoot worth a darn unless you neck size and others wont shoot any good unless the case is full length sized. Some wont shoot with anything. Take two guns off the assembly line side by side and one will shoot a 150 gr. and the other only wants a 180 gr. bullet. It really depends on the gun in your hand and all we can do here is offer things to try. There is no gospel. I feel honored to discuss things with all of you, nice bunch of guys!

"Cast bullets are very SLIPPERY compared to jacketed and do not offer enough resistance to the powder burn if you use a slow powder"

The term I use is 'engraving resistance' which refers to the actual shell of the cast bullet which is handled by the rifling. Say your shooten aged ww alloy at 14 bhn vs jacketed bullet at 100 bhn for it's shell. Or better yet-- try and drive the two down a barrel and you'll see how this INITAL resistance determines ignition characteristics.

Alot of cast shooters employ slow numbers and some of these even produce very good ES's. A caseful of 7828 makes moa in my Marlin 06 albeit with hardened bullets. Several over the yrs have reported using slow numbers in the 45/70 with good results even at long range.

--powder performance. Getting an uniform and consistent ignition. Bullet dia's too small and soft, neck tension very soft or alot of variation are faults.

I could expand on the above...maybe later. But that's alot of the cast shooten problems in a nutshell.

Aladin..If cast bullets are too slippery to be used with slow powder, then how do you explain the super accuracy I am getting with WC872, which by all accounts is a very, very slow powder. Yes in some loads I get a little unburned powder, but it is the distance between the hole on the target that counts, and not the soot in the barrel.

Aladin again..Ooops! It helps to read you post again. I see you were responding to the slippery bullet post of bfrshooter.

charger,

A while back on the old shooters forum we had a lenghty heated discussion on lead being easier or not to push down a barrel. I won't get into all that again but it ended up that nobody came up with why you could load a same weight jacketed bullet to a higher pressure thus more powder then with the same weight cast bullet, and it doesn't have anything to do with the cast bullet not being as strong as the jacketed bullet. We were mainly talking about handgun cast bullet not rifles. The only good try someone took at it was that lead sealed the bore more efficiently then a jacketed bullet thus not letting any gas blowby and lowering the pressure. The one statement that I made that got a lot of flak was that a jacketed is harder to push down a barrel bore then lead simply because it's alot harder. Lead has a higher friction sliding along steel then a copper alloy.

Joe

Joe/Starmetal..How well I remember that thread that went on for an eternity and scaled the heights of higher mathmatics and lofty physics. I got lost pretty quick...but nothing changed my basic opinion which is 100% like yours.

Joe, Don't I recall your position on lead vs copper being supported by a tech from Hornady? I think his verbiage was that lead is more "sticky."

I guess this is a strange situation and might relate to the particular gun and caliber also. I know I have been able to use much more powder with cast bullets then I ever did with jacketed and get lower pressure indications. Of course this is in handguns. I shoot a 347 gr. cast from a .44 mag with the same powder charge listed as max for a 300 jacketed. That same charge with the jacketed will flatten primers. With the cast the primers are normal and the cases fall out. I have always gotten higher velocity, lower pressure signs and lower recoil from cast. Looks like more investigation needs to be done.
The problem with a slow powder and a cast bullet is related to barrel length. A short carbine or handgun will not perform with too slow of a powder and cast bullets. BUT, I have had excellent accuracy with a slow powder in a short barrel but unburned powder fell from the gun like rain and velocity was very low. Sticky or not, I still contend that a hard cast bullet has less friction in the bore then a jacketed bullet. Ask yourself why do most cast bullet shooters shoot several hundred rounds of jacketed bullets first to BREAK IN AND SMOOTH THE BORES? Which barrel will wear out first, one that shoots lead or one that shoots copper? C'mon guys, think this over. Have you ever seen a .22 barrel worn out? (Not talking about rust or rod wear!) What about all the rifles that went through the civil war that when taken care of, have perfect bores and still shoot good. Can any of you push a jacketed bullet through a bore with a rod? Why do all of you use lead to slug a barrel instead of copper? Oh, I see, it's too hard!