I picked up a Savage 99 feather weight takedown last week. I have been looking for a 99 in 250/3000 Savage for the last few years to replace one I traded off 20 years ago. I got this one so cheap I couldn't pass it up.
The question is, I've heard to load 303 savage like a 30-30, I looked in the lyman cast book and they show it loaded a lot hotter than the 30-30. Anybody got any hot ideas about this. I checked the serial number on the gun and it was made in 1923, the bore is very good and I was thinking of making it a cast only gun.

My stepdad had a .303 Savage 1899. Liked in much better than the 30-30 because of the heavier weight standard loadings and the effect on deer.

I've seen posted (that means 'hearsay' and check it out for yourself)that they loaded .303 bullets in a standard .30 bore - result: higher velocity (and pressure). Again, measure your own rifle's bore and flip your own coins.

Good machine. I have one of the first .300 Savages in a takedown - about the same vintage as yours; also have a newer one in .308Win.

I have had two rifles in .303 Savage, both take downs. Advice to use 30-30 data is right on. Proper bullet diameter is .308", not .311" as some have said. The .303 was popular with some old timers because of the deeper penetration that the 190 gr. bullet gave on heavier animals. I have always felt that Winchesters decision to not use the 190 gr. Silvertip bullet as a choice in the 30-30 was a serious error in judgement.
Sam Fadala, in his book on the Winchester Model 94 would buy .303 Sav. ammo, and pull the bullets to load them in his 30-30. He gives a load of 29.0 gr. of IMR-4064 for 1987 FPS from a 20" barrel. He said this load gives 2005 FPS from a 26" barrel. He had to do this because Winchester would never sell the bullets as a component to the public, not even to a renowned gun writer.
In Winchester's #15 loading booklet, they show one load, 33.5 gr. of W-748 with a 170 gr. bullet. My personal favorite is 28.0 gr.of W-748 with the RCBS #30-180-FN cast bullet in wheel weight metal. Bullet weighs 189.9 gr. on the average. The load shot well in both my .303 Sav. rifles one a 17.5" barreled carbine, the other a 26" barreled rifle. FWIW, the load works real well in all my M94 Winchesters as well. Kills deer right dead right quick.
Paul B.

It was a perfect day today, 70 degrees light wind. Took the 99 to the range today. I bought 20 Bertrum cases and ran 40 33-30 cases through the sizing die and trimmed them back. loaded up some 2400, IMR4895, and IMR3031 loads with "oup cans" and 160 grain WW bullets. Both lubed with FWFL. I had always heard Burtrum brass was first class stuff, it should be I paid $1.50 a piece for it. Well I had 2 cases split on the first firing. I did a chamber cast last week and the chamber is right in spec. I did the chamber cast because of the talk about some of the first guns had a .311 groove diam. Has anyone else have any problems with Bertrum brass? the 40 30-30 cases I fire formed didn't split and they blow out the case a lot. I tried some thing I heard about, putting a ring of masking tape about a quarter inch wide in the base of the case. This houlds the case in the middle of the chamber and the case expands evenly all the way around rather than the case laying on the bottom of the chamber and all the expansion is on the top making a bad looking bulge.
As far as accuracy even with the thrown together forming loads it was grouping about 1" groups at 50 yards with the stock open sights. Now I'm going to put some good loads together with the formed cases a see what it will do.

Ed-

For what it's worth, you're not the first poster I've seen on one of these BB's that has had Bertram brass split on the first firing.

I too have been underwhelmed by the few Bertram cases I have tried (their .405's, reformed to .40-72WCF), though none of themn actually split. Yes, the .303 is quite a catridge, and I have had 2 or 3 '99's in this caliber, plus one early Marlin-built 1895. I currently have a neat little "parts" featherweight with the W&E Lyman #30-1/2 peep on it that's just about the perfect rifle. Fortunately, I had stockpiled a good supply of cases for it (also used some to make .40 Spl. and .44 Evans rounds, and have always thought a blown-out-straight ".404 Savage" would be a neat idea, if the magazine were modified accordingly). BTW, there has been a lot of controversy here on the Undernet about actual Model 99 .303 groove diameters. After slugging and miking a bunch of them, we had just about agreed that they were all a nominal 0.308" groove dia. Then a fellow .303 nut came up with one from the '20's that slugs 0.311"! Go figure! Winchester used 0.308" bullets, as did Western; Remington used 0.310" (I just miked one to be sure), and it is believed that those with the "S. A. Co." headstamps were also made this size by Remington for Savage. floodgate

Ed,
Did I understand correctly that you were using .30-30 cases in the .303 Savage? The .30 WCF has a smaller base than the .303 and this probably caused the split cases.-JDL

JDL

"Did I understand correctly that you were using .30-30 cases in the .303 Savage? The .30 WCF has a smaller base than the .303 and this probably caused the split cases.-JDL "



I formed 40 cases from 30-30 and none of them split. Of the 20 new Burtram cases in 303 Savage, 2 of them split on the first firing.

JDL. While it is true that the bases of the 30-30 case is smaller, you can run them through a .303 Sav. sizing die and trim to proper length. They do have an unsightly buldge when fired, but I never had one split in either of the two .303 Sav. rifles I had.
I came up with the idea of carefully wrapping the 30-30 case near the base with 1/8" pinstriping tape, using just enough to center the case in the chamber. Once fireformed, the case would be properly centered in the chamber and could be used normally.
I never got around to trying it myself, as I'd sold the rifles, but I have heard from others that I gave the suggestion to who have said they tried it and it worked out well.
I should look for another .303 Sav. and try it for myself. I always did like to shoot something a bit different.
Paul B.

I've read Sam's statement that Winchester did not sellthe bullets as components. However, they must have at one time as I have about 40 of them on the shelf. For those interested they mike .3085" not .311". I've been looking for some more...

I'm currently reading Townsend Whelens " The American Rifle" and J.R. Matterns "Handloading Ammunition" books. Both authors refer to Savage changing the specs on 303 ammo "many years ago". From what I gather this must have been in the early 1900's. Both authors also refer to Savage using "the same diameter bullet as the British service cartidge", the 303 Brit. (Interestingly Mattern repeatedly refers to the 30-30 as being undersize in bulet diameter- he says .306-.307 bullets in the standard .308 bore. Sierra still lists 30-30 bullets at .307!) The authors state that the original 303 Savge had a .308 bore and used .311 bullets with resulting high pressure being a problem. No modern text I'm aware of mentions this claim. As far as I'm concerned if yoou can't believe Whelen and Mattern then we may as well toss it all in and just quit here!

As far as brass, I'm told that brass can be formed from 220 Swift and you'll have the proper base size. I prefer to haunt out of the way stores and flea markets for old stock brass and ammo. Anyone considered a letter drive,(email?), to Savage to get them to have a run of 303 brass made?

Hi guys I have a Savage 99 in 303 savage and after slugging the bore it needs a 308 bullet. I buy my new brass from buffalo arms here. Price is high but you do not have to mess with trying to make the cases from any others. I use Lee dies and they work well.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/search.htm?step=2&viewfrom=1&numresults=10&searchterm=303+savage

Some factory bullets definitely "mic" .311". As I type this I have before me an original box of C.I.L. 190 gr. RN SP bullets for the .303 Savage, lot #FBD 25P22. Having just mic'd them again, they do measure .311" diameter exactly.

For cases, I neck up and full-length size .220 Swift brass. They are slightly bigger at the base than factory .303 brass, but the full-length-size die brings them down to correct diameter nicely. When fire-formed they have no unsightly bulge at the base. My rifle extracts them very nicely, though the rims are significantly smaller in diameter than the factory brass.

If my rifle would not extract the reformed .220 brass, I would undercut the extractor slightly so that it could move farther onto the semi-rim of the case. That would not hurt extraction of regular factory .303 brass, but would improve extraction of re-formed .220 cases.

AS TO GETTING SOMEONE TO MAKE NEW .303 SAVAGE BRASS, let me suggest this, please:

E-mail Mr. Bob Graf of Graf & Sons at http://www.grafs.com

I have been bugging him for about a year now to have a run made of this brass specifically for sale through Graf & Sons. It is my opinion that if he was convinced of a market for the stuff, he would do it...he is already having brass made for the 8x56R Mannlichers and similar "obsolete" cartridges.

All we need to do is convince him he won't get stuck with the stuff.

AC

Canuck: Good idea, I will e-mail Graf's as soon as I've finished here. If they can't do it, let's give Starline a try. I have had fine brass from both of them. I still regret the five boxes of .303 I broke down 35 years ago, to cut down for cases for our "40 Special" (a project abruptly dropped when S&W and Remington "invented" the .41 Mag.), and another two boxes in the '80's to make into .44 Evans N.M. But they were still common and cheap then. floodgate

Graf's sounds like a very good idea. I have used their 7.5 Swiss, 7.5 MAS, and 7.62X54R I was well impressed with the quality of that brass. I believe they have it made in Europe.

Graf & Sons say they've had several requests for .303 Savage, and will consider them for a future order. A few more polite inquiries will probably get them moving on these, though it will take a while. floodgate

Ed Barrett,

I just checked ebay and their are 3 auctions of .303 Savage brass:
1.) Rem-Umc box with 18 pcs. of brass
2.) 50 empties Winchester & Rem
3.) 20 .303 headstamped OWS (Old Western Scrounger)
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&krd=1&from=R8&MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&query=303+savage

Tpr.Bret,
Yes, early .30 W.C.F. W.R.A. CO. headstamped cartridges that I have contain bullets that are .306" diameter. According to Dan Schuey, author of the book, "W.R.A. Headstamped Cartridges and Their Variations", WInchester used .306" diameter bullets in their .30 W.C.F. until about 1904 when they increased the diameter to .308".
http://www.wcfpublications.com/

Floodgate,
I sent you a p.m.

w30wcf