303Guy to follow on from the short discussion on slow powders. This is on the understanding that you are not looking for greatly reduced loads in which case the traditional fast powder aproach still works best.I read a piece some time ago that talked about the use of fast powders causing les in the way of linear progress regarding powder increase and pressure which effected velocity and accuracy. The opinion was that if loads were going to be up to the sweet spot just before alloy plasticisation, ie leading then there were formula for working it out. The slow powders build pressure and velocity in a better way for faster loads. The fastest powder I would concider is 2206 - 3031 in the 7x57 - 303 sized case. I am about to start loading for a just finished custon 7x57 and where I used 2207 - 3031 / 160gn gc in the last one, this time I will go to 2208 and 2209. It seems that the powders that work best with jacketed bullets also work well with cast.Using the BH of the alloy and the pressure reduction/velocity reduction forula it is simple to load right up to potential. I go into it fully in the next NZ G&H as a conclusion to the building of my 404. I dont know how to upload onto the forum but if there was interest I could email a draft of the portion of the piece that pertains to this subject to anyone who PM me.

Von Gruff.

Thank you kindly, Von Gruff. I appreciate the information.
Ummmm ... you said 2206/3031 and 2207/3031 - which one is it?
PM sent.

That was thinking (or not thinking) of too many things at once. 2206 and 3031 are similar burning rates. 2207 is H4198 which I use in the 20 VarTarg.I had just run up a few more loads.

Von Gruff.

you need to watch going too slow as most powders burn more effeciently in pressure ranges.
you end up with a lot of unburned powder in the bore,which causes it's own problems along with laying a deposit in the bbl negating any lube left behnd.

quote:

you need to watch going too slow as most powders burn more effeciently in pressure ranges.

This is what has been bothering me. I decided to get bold and do simple test with AR2208/Varget. I loaded down to about 60% case capacity, packed the space with cotton wool - I wanted to see whether the cotton wool would ignite - and seated a 245gr cast bullet witha waxy-lybe wad (and waxy-lube coating). I fired it straight down into my firing tube. It burned clean and pressure was mild. I repeated the test but probably packed in more cotton wool. The feel of the shot was different as was the strike noise. Pressure was higher but still mild and bullet damage was greater. Again it burned clean. The cotton wool showed no signs of burning - no scourching, nothing. The bore was clean too! Of course, two shots does not prove anything. Oh, it did deform the base of the bullet which had no gas check.

There is no unburned powder if the pressure range is worked out apropriate for the alloy being used. I am not looking for greatly reduced loads, rather the oposite. I was looking for the best performance possible with this particular bullet. I had a 400gn bullet that shot best at 1750fps but feel that it would have loaded higher to the sweet spot with out leading however it was only a plinking load so was suficient as was.

Von Gruff.

303 you need to weigh your filler as if it was part of the powder charge.
use 2 grains each time etc...
30 grains of varget should be a good load and give you about 1900 fps with the filler.
using the filler takes out the velocity variations,but it also tends to leave the bore a bit drier,not a problem if you aren't having a leading issue.

In New Zealand there is a wool wad marketed by TCBK and they are just the ticket for over powder. I would never go back to the dacron type of filler. The TCBK wads work in all case sizes although I use two for reduced loads in the 404. They are the best.

Von Gruff.

Thanks for the info Lamar and Von Gruff. Much appreciated. I was beginning to wonder about filler quantity.
Were do I find these TCBK wads? My local gunshop? In the meantime, can I assume that cotton wool is OK? I did notice that it was a little waxy when recovered and the bore did seem a little too clean!

Was that 30gr Varget behind 245grs of bullet? (Just making sure - it does tie up with the load data I have available, that being 39.5gr Varget/AR2208 behind a 215gr jacketed bullet).

Any idea how such a load would compare in a much shorter barrel? Say 18 inches or so. (That would be a different 303 - the one I actually plan to bore out to 375. I was thinking today I should fire lapp the thing just to see how much salvaging can be done - this thing actually still has some rifling which is well defined but rust damaged).

it was for a 180 grain boolit but it should be okay with the heavier one, i would go down to 28 and come back up.
that wool sounds okay to me, i am cheap so just go steal dryer lint from the filter in the back of the dryer.
i like the lint from the bath towells.
they are all cotton too.don't pack or cram it in just push it in there and use enough volumne to fill the case full and let the boolit push it into the case.

i know the one you are talking about i would try paul's method [docone-31] with the paper patch and the compound.

Thanks. Just as well I asked. I will try docone-31's method. I used my brass 'fire-lapping bullets' to get the scale out. It originally looked like there was no real rifling at all!

For what it's worth. In my 30-06 with a 208 grain cast bullet I use IMR 4895. The same loads the manuals recommend for 220 grain jacketed slugs.
In the 405 I use IMR 3031, 50 some odd grains behind a 350 grain cast.
In the 375 Whelen I used IMR 3031, IMR 4895 and IMR 4064, AA 2520.
Once I get out to the loading shed and make some 168 grain spitzer cast slugs. I want to see how well they shoot in the 308/7.62 using IMR 4895. This will be fun, I'm using what I call red babbit metal, high copper content alloy.

Jim

303 Guy If you google TCBK wads or Beaver Grease.co.nz it will take you to Jeff Browns web with all relevant details. They really are good. A monsterous bag of them for next to nothing. He has lots of gun stuff available.

Von Gruff.

Thank you kindly Von Gruff. Much appreciated!

arkypete, that is very interesting! You didn't mention the accuracy you are getting. Would you mind telling me more about your 'red babbit metal' (which I misread as red rabbit metal!) I have a faint suspicion you might be doing something that I was told wouldn't work? I'll just wait for your reply.

To quote some one "Only accurate rifles are interesting!"
The 30-06 rifle is a Winchester 95 lever action, with a reciever site. The cast bullets will shoot into 1.5 to 2. inch off the bench, at 100 yards. Which is fine considering the trigger and sites.
I'll load up a couple hundred rounds and shoot off hand at steel gongs at 100 and 200 yards. The steel gongs are any where from 10 by 10 to 4 by 4.
I use the 30-06 as an under study for my Winchester 95 405 Winchester. Again the same site set up, cast 350 grain bullets, case full of IMR 3031, same accuracy.
The 375 Whelen has a scope and produces some fine accuracy with the 250 grain Saeco, say hovering around an inch at 100 yards. I used AA 2520, tinkered with RL-7, want to work with the IMR 4895. All of the bullets used and mentioned were wheel weights, lino alloy water dripped at casting, sized .02 over bore, annealed gas checks, LBT Blue, and weigh within 3/10s of a grain of each other.
The red babbit I discovered at the scrap yard. Odd looking greasy mess that rang like a bell when tapped. I cleaned up a pot full, put it into the casting pot and made some bullets. The bullets have red sheen to them and they are hard as an ex wife's heart. Drop them from shoulder height and they do not dent, on to concrete. They are shiney as you mom's sterling, accurate, devestating on steel gongs.
They worked well out of the 375 Whelen and a 243 Winchester.

Jim

Thanks for that arkypete. That is most encouraging!

Say, is there any reason not to use possum fur as a filler? It's supposed to be lightweight and shouldn't burn any more than wool? Just a thought! (How Kiwi would that be!)