It has been suggested to me that I should start casting my own .458 bullets for my 45-120 "Nitro" (458 Lott speeds)

What are the absolute basics? I assumed I would need to gas check these bullets as it can do 500 grain bullets 2200ish fps. What is the best bullet for penetration, and what proportions of lead and other metals would I need for a deep penetrating bullet?

Oh yes, forgot to say thanks in advance for your help!

quote:

(458 Lott speeds)

Might I suggest paper patched boolits? (That is how 'cast bullet' is spelt! ).

I have just started with this rather fun pastime. I have found a few 'tricks' to make them easily and I am told paper patched boolits can be driven at jacketed bullet velocity. No gas check required. Some folks size the prime casting before patching then again after patching. Some don't. With the correct size mold, one can get away with no sizing at all. Folks also say that paper patched boolits will outshoot jacketed bullets (accuracy wise). I'm still to find out.






This is a boolit going through the patching stages and the final result. Mine are gas checked because I use the gas check as the mold base plug.

Oh yes, cases last forever - no sizing needed. One can roll crimp to secure the boolit better for magazine feed.

Tyler, go to the Midway site and look for the free online videos Midway has on you tube. The is quite a series and they are simple enough to learn the process.
Frank

quote:

In most situations, you want to shoot a cast bullet which is 0.001-0.002" over bore diameter for best accuracy, and minimized leading.

Don't you mean "over groove diameter"?

I first turned to "Paper 101." when I was trying to find out about paper patching.

Yep, I meant " 0.001 - 0.002" over groove diameter." Thanks for the "save."

Tyler,

The simplest way to start only requires the minimum equipment to melt and pour the lead
and one good mold that produces a bullet that fits your rifle. A lot of the stuff can be bought at thrift stores and does not have to be cast bullet specific.

First thing you have to do is slug your bore and determine the groove diameter.

1. A heat source.
A Coleman stove or hot plate capable of heating 10 to 20 pounds of alloy to about 800° F.

2. A dipper or ladle to pour the alloy

3. An old strainer spoon to stir and remove dross from the pot.

4. Some bullet metal. Wheels weights work but
20 parts lead to 1 part tin casts easier but may be more expensive.

5. Bullet lube.

6. Some sort of shallow pan to melt the lube.
I have even smeared it on with my fingers and gotten good results though it was a messy job.

7 A cast iron pot to melt the metal in.
Do not use ALUMINUM

Basically

Melt alloy
Cast bullets
Lube bullets
Load
Shoot.

The main trick is knowing your groove diameter.
And as said about get a mold that casts the bullet .001 to .002 larger.
Lower velocities and heavy bullets usually give the best accuracy.

Try the CAST BOOLITS site
or one of the BPCR sites but don't tell them you are going to use smokeless. They will get hostile at smokeless. However they will go way out of their way to help you if they think you are shooting black powder.

quote:

Do not use ALUMINUM

Oh My Hat! Why! (I'm sure I've done that - not recently, but I was planning too. Oops!)

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:

What are the absolute basics?

Great info:

http://www.lasc.us/IndexBrennan.htm

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

I find that the least expensive cast lead boolits are cast from wheelweights in Lee Precision aluminum molds, then lubed with Lee's liquid Alox...no lubasizer or gas checks needed...just shoot them 'as cast.' You can't get much more 'crash course' than that.

So how do I paper patch a bullet? If I use the Liquid Alox stuff do I need a gas check if I shoot a 500 grain bullet past 2000 fps?

size boolit to bore wrap[two wraps are best] to just over groove diameter and size to either groove diam or .001 over.
to get 2 g from cast you'll need a g/c and not lla. use a real lube.

Ty,

If you're really gonna shoot those bullets at 2200 fps, then YES you need a gas check. You also need a pretty good quality, consistent lead alloy mix. Wheel weights are fine for most applications, up to a certain velocity, but not good enough for 2200 fps. I know guys do it. I've seen guys do it. You will have leading problems however. You need a harder alloy.

I'm assuming a little bit here from our previous chats together that these loads are not going to be for hunting, but just for torturing your friends with (here buddy, shoot this baby)?

The reason I ask is all down to application of the finished product. It all boils down to "what" you're intending the ammo for?

In order to not have leading problems at that velocity level, you are going to have to run a pretty "hard" bullet alloy. That means you will get NO bullet expansion. This may or may not be a big deal, depending on your specific application.

Also, your bullet sized diameter is going to be more critical with the high velocity and the hard alloy. Think of it as a less forgiving scenario than a low velocity application.

You are also going to have to use a premium quality bullet lube, and not just "smeared on" for 2200 fps.

I DO cast my own bullets. My specific application is radically different than yours. Not to say one is right and the other is wrong, it's just different. The bullets that I make work very well in my application. These same bullets would perform HORRIBLY in your described application.

I cast mostly for real black powder loads, and usually running 1200-1400 fps or less. Yes I have "smeared lube" on some by hand. It does work for that. I also cast MUCH SOFTER bullets than you will be needing.

You will need a way to melt lead. There are several ways to go here. You "can" use a coleman type propane stove, but they suck. You will be unhappy with it pretty quickly. They waste a lot of time and fuel, and have trouble reaching the temperatures that you will need. Also consistent casting temperature is a bitch that way.

One of the electric casting pots would be easier to use, and "most" will give better heat consistency over a coleman stove.

I use a huge propane camp chef stove and a huge iron pot to mix my alloy blends in large quantities. It puts out 30K btu's per burner (far more heat than a "coleman" type stove). Once my alloy is mixed, I then pour it into 1lb ingots and use those ingots to feed my electric melting pot.

You will need a high quality bullet mold. Sure a "cheap" one will get you started, but for YOUR application, it will not be satisfactory.

You will need a way to size the bullet, and put lube on it. A "lubrisizer" type setup is popular, as it does both functions at the same time. For your application, ideally you will have a mold that "drops" a bullet at the precised diameter you need, and your lube-size operation will only put the lube on. Hence the "quality mold", ie "custom" mold more than likely. You may luck out and not need it, but be thinking "custom mold".

Slowpoke, can you come to the chat room tonight?

Is gas-checked linotype suitable for high velocity loads? With 405 grain bullets I can surpass 2500 fps. Would I get expansion at that velocity?

Ty,

Sorry I didn't see the chat invite last night. I had to run out the door right after I typed my reply to you.

I think gas checked linotype would be a good starting point for an alloy. You may have to try a couple of different sizing die diameters to get the "one" for your barrel. You should also at least slug your bore at the throat, rifling at chamber end, and muzzle end. Ideally you will want to do a chamber cast of the entire throat and start of rifling area of your barrel. Start first by sizing the bullet to just over (.001) the throat and see how that performs.

As far as expansion, I would say you would get very little to no expansion at all. Depending on what the bullet hits that is. On a deer, doubtful, on a granite boulder, maybe a little.

If not for the rifling marks along the bullet body, it will most likely look like you could shoot the bullets again.

If you are going to hunt game with this round, I would look closely at an "LBT" style of bullet. They have a very wide flat nose area, with the "meplat" (flat part) nearly to caliber size. This gives a better impact on game and more tissue upset.

If this is just long range target or "buddy torturing", then go with a round nose or spitzer type nose. Bear in mind that this would likely just "pencil through" a deer however at your alloy hardness.

The chat room would help me a ton, whenever you're able to talk, PM me, but tonight I have a date with the young lady..

stay away from girls Tyler!!!

They will ruin your budget for shooting. There's an old saying here in Idaho: "...if it has tits or tires, it will bankrupt you and break your heart...".

Trust me on this one, I speak from experience.

Rich
Buff Killer

s.e. idaho seconds the saying. except the second line is ,it will cause money problems.

Ty,

I'm not sure when I'll be back online again. After tomorrow I'll be offline until my move is complete, maybe Tues or Wed of next week. I'd be happy to chat with you after that.

You may also go over to Graybeard's site and read up in the "Ask Veral" forum about casting. There's a bunch of stuff already covered if you skim through it, but if you have a specific question, ask Veral. He knows far more about casting bullets for your velocity range than I do. He's also THE LBT guy.

Guys,

Don't bother trying to warn off 'ol Ty about girls. I tried to warn him off to the dangers last year. It's too late for him. Poor bugger. It's too bad that each generation has to learn that the hard way...

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

Do not use ALUMINUM

Oh My Hat! Why! (I'm sure I've done that - not recently, but I was planning too. Oops!)

Aluminum pots can slump with no warning pouring the melt on your shoes or the floor. Aluminum pots are a bad no-no.

Thanks for that nelsonted1. I simply did not think of that - too obvious! (We used an aluminum pot on an electric hot plate and I think we also used an aluminum pot with a blow torch directly onto the lead).

I'd like to give a HUGE thanks to Slowpoke Slim, he spent 4 hours with me last telling me exactly how casting works, and all about it. I think I know what I'm doing, and should be casting within a week!

Say Tyler

Have you considered paper patching? Someone got me started on that and it is real fun! Then when you see the results these folks are getting - it's awesome!

I have the kind permission the owner to post this pic of his. See what I mean?



It's a 35 Remington.

There is another blackpowder shooter putting ten paper patched shots from his Shiloh Sharps into the black ring at 1000 yards!

What's not to like?