The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Cast Bullets Re: emf 1874 sharps 45-70Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Re: emf 1874 sharps 45-70 | Login/Join |
| one of us |
Could be a zillion things (gee, I'm a big help) but I'd be looking at how the bullet fits in the throat, if there is a throat, and if there are any throat abnormalities. A chamber slug or chamber cast might shed some light. I have yet to see a good throat on a 45/70, yet most of them shoot "OK". Since this is a single shot, you are seating the bullet out to touch the rifling, right? | ||
|
| one of us |
Your shooten iron sights? How small do you expect them at 100? Bore leading any? Have you tried any of the lighter weight bore ride designs.. the Lyman spitzer design or 4571215? And if so did the bore ride dia fit your barrel? I've found fitting the bore ride to the lands shooten the 45/70 has helped a good deal. Do that & you've accomplished pre-shot alignment and throat fit isn't a factor. | |||
|
| one of us |
I had a very hard time finding a bullet that would shoot well in either of my Shilohs until I tried the 535g Lyman Postell design. They're made using a 20-1 alloy lubed with some secret Lyman BP lube. Everything I tried before leaded the bore and patterened as much as it grouped. The bullet alloys were too hard and the lube was not up to the task. See my earlier thread for links to some target pictures. I shot a sub one inch group with irons on one of my Shilohs. 1.230" edge to edge minus the bullet diameter; .459" = .771" center to center. It can be done. | |||
|
| one of us |
I was just messing the rifle this morning and trying to seat the bullet out to touch the rifling and it's almost imposible to do. When the bullet just touchs the rifling, I have about a little less then and 1/8 of an inch of the bullet in the case, thats inculding the gas check. There is no way to even put a slight crimp on the case because the bullet gets stuck in the die and push down in the case before I can even start to snuge up the case mouth. That seems to be way too much free bore to me. Bullets are sized .460. I am using tang and a globe front sight. | |||
|
| one of us |
David, sounds like you need either a longer (heavier) boolit or longer brass. Easiest thing will be to try one of the 450+ grain molds. Next would be to see if your chamber causes the brass to headspace on the rim or the case neck -- if there's clearance ahead of the casemouth, you might try getting some 45-90 brass and cutting it down to fit. For the crimp problem, about all you can do is to open up the seating die to a diameter large enough to allow the boolit to pass through and contact the seating stem. I'd also recommend getting a Lee Factory Crimp Die. | |||
|
| one of us |
Try the Lee 405 gr hollow base bullet cast very soft sized to .460" with a soft lube and crimped with the Lee factory crimp die over the front band. All this over 20 to 23 gr. of SR4759. That should get you a excellant group. | |||
|
| one of us |
David, D: I was just messing the rifle this morning and trying to seat the bullet out to touch the rifling and it's almost imposible to do.. F: I sounds like the chamber/throat in your rifle is unusual. Since this may very well be the case, and the cause of your accuracy troubles you have to find out what (exactly) is going on in there. One of the chamber-casting kits may be needed to provide you with the exact picture. Other methods like the one Vearl Smith advises for showing the size/shape of chambers and throats of rifles can be done easily as well.. Whatever the method you have to find the actual dimentions of this critical area of your rifle. Once done, then you'll be able to fit the bullets to the chamber/throat/barrel in a way that will enable you to shoot into the typical 1 to 1 1/2 MOA groups such rifles normally deliver. By the way, crimping bullets in the singleshot action is not necessary at all and may in fact reduce the accuracy of any given load. I shoot thousands of 45/70 in my Ballard and never, never crimp a single one. Good morning, Forrest | |||
|
| one of us |
The last email i recieved from the company stated that if the bore was oversized that i could send it back and they would rebarrel. Could try that | |||
|
| one of us |
Forrest- You wrote: Once done, then you'll be able to fit the bullets to the chamber/throat/barrel in a way that will enable you to shoot into the typical 1 to 1 1/2 MOA groups such rifles normally deliver. By the way, crimping bullets in the singleshot action is not necessary at all and may in fact reduce the accuracy of any given load. I shoot thousands of 45/70 in my Ballard and never, never crimp a single one. Is this the accuracy you get from your Ballard with your uncrimped loads? If so, consider the following. I have shot many long range groups from 1/2 to 1 moa with over 18 different 4570 rifles (buffalo classics, marlin 1895's, browning bpcr's, rolling blocks, trapdoors, sharps 1874's etc.) with crimped loads and cast bullets. While it is not necessary to crimp, it is necessary to get the powder to optimal burning pressure to get fine accuracy. Some powders do not burn all that well without enough resistance. 405's in the 4570 does not do that well in that regard with alot of smokeless powders. The subject of a proper crimp is lengthy subject too. A crimp should provide resistance for proper powder burn without damaging and distorting the bullet. I have tried many types of crimps and most are worse than worthless, but Spencer Wolfes method works very well. He crimped into the bullet nose in front of the first driving band without distorting the band or nose. I also tested most all of the powders available to find one that would produce tight, round groups. The best was SR 4759, but it needed a crimp to go from 1.25" 100 yd groups to 5/8" 100 yd groups. I crimp my paper patch loads also, these go 1/2 moa. All these are with soft 8.5 bhn bullets. Don't nock something until you have tried it thoroughly. | |||
|
| one of us |
David, It sounds like your problems are bullets not fitting the bore, and way too much leade in your chamber throat area. A couple of things you could do: Try shooting a longer bullet, say 500-550 grain. Try to find some for sale at a gunshow or etc before springing for a mold, just to see if they help. It might take up some of your leade area. Try shooting the .460 diameter bullets cast from dead soft lead, and shoot them "as dropped" from the mold, ie, not sized. It might take up the bigger throat/leade area in the throat. But try it with a "dead soft" lead bullet and a reduced powder charge (like say a "trapdoor" load), not a high pressure load. Take some of your .458 and your .460 dia sized bullets and paper patch them. Then try shooting them to see if they help take up the overbore size. I assume you are shooting only/mostly smokeless powder? Are you using smokeless bullet lube? Generally the "hard" type blue or red lube is usually smokeless lube, while the soft SPG and beeswax type lubes are for black powder. Match the bullet lube to the powder your shooting. Sorry if you already know all of this, I'm not trying to bruise your intellect, I just don't know what you've tried. The BEST solution is a new barrel, or having your old barrel taken off and cut down from the chamber side and re-reamed and re-installed. Or, have it reamed out to 45-90 or 45-120 and shoot it with oversized cast bullets. | |||
|
| one of us |
" I have shot many long range groups from 1/2 to 1 moa with over 18 different 4570 rifles" "crimp my paper patch loads also, these go 1/2 moa." writes 45 2.1 Meaning NO flame the word 'many' sticks out rather like a sore thumb. 'Many' isn't a loading to compete with, more a wall hanging group similar to the one I posted per the 500 Lee this morn. Now try the word 'all' for competition, or a flyer rate almost near zero. Your flyer rate is zero/perfect?? Mr Wolfe's crimp method sounds like a cure-all, yet what if your throating DOES NOT match the groove arrangement on the bullet per the rifle's throating? If the rider isn't making contact and nothing per the bullet is touching out front-- what accomplishes forward alignemnt? Surely you want the bullet looking down the bore center or does your crimp handle that too? And you say nothing of ES's.... which is what a long range loading is about. Again one string doesn't make a loading. Maybe your loading techniques sans the crimping step could be refined? Again this isn't meant to be a smart ass remark, just the more I mess with the straight wall case the more ways I find to 'tweak' alignment and uniform the ES--- which on a good loading does make 10-13 fps using 4759 MINUS a crimp. I do think single digit ES's are doable too, just more refinement and matching components. As in alot of cast shooten techniques... mileage DOES vary. While methinks I could match Forrest at 100 shooten paper 45/70 groups [only if he allows me to use a scope], I'd be the fat guy I am running in mud to attempt to match his LR shooten. | |||
|
| new member |
Best load for my EMF 45-70 was a LEE 500g bullet cast of soft lead and sized to .451. Then paper patched ( twisted tail) with two wraps of 20# cotton bond typing paper and lubed ( wiped) with graphite powder. The load used IMR-3031 and a filler, no crimp, but was seat out to where it was snug against the lands. Velocity was at 1200 FPS. Cases were once fired and unsized. I used a half inch dowel rod to push them in snug. From a rest at the 100 yard bench I could get 3 shot clover leaves on a good day. Wiped the bore with a dry patch after every shot. Never could get the 4th shot to join the rest. Factory sights were replaced with a SOULE rear and target front with level. wrg-inc | |||
|
| one of us |
Quote: < !--color--> It's not so much the load as it is the technique and fit that gets you results. You seem to have about half the puzzle, keep working on it to get the fouler into the group. Most game and games don't allow sighters. I think Forrest only shoots at 100 to test. Most of the thing he writes up are long range matches where wind and light doping ability are what wins. No flame was intented in my reply just as you said in yours. I do wish Forrest would respond though. Its hard to find big bore long range shooters that shoot smokeless. | |||
|
| one of us |
Sorry, you'll have to interpet it, I haven't learned to use the edit features yet. | |||
|
| one of us |
"It's not so much the load as it is the technique and fit that gets you results. You seem to have about half the puzzle, keep working on it to get the fouler into the group. Most game and games don't allow sighters. I think Forrest only shoots at 100 to test. Most of the thing he writes up are long range matches where wind and light doping ability are what wins" Your remarks per the foulers aren't correct. A F'r is just that... fouling a CLEAN bore with one rd. Or-- as alot of the time in my case, reconditioning a bore with a rd of differing lube amounts/hardness/etc. Anyone who's done any amount of experimenting knows changing a load can/does/might affect impact for one rd.. then it'll go with the remaining impacts. If you require 'foulers' then your bores differ from mine. I likewise am interested in your lack of response per the ES's of your crimped loadings. Like most I've discounted crimping due to the extra step and complication of the loading-- as crimping the forwward driving band front isn't going to promote alignment in my setup. It's just another step to add variation and runout in a loading. I thought your original reply suggesting a crimp would solve the inaccuracy of the original poster was more a problem of his setup and runout in his gun. | |||
|
| one of us |
"Your remarks per the foulers aren't correct. A F'r is just that... fouling a CLEAN bore with one rd. Or-- as alot of the time in my case, reconditioning a bore with a rd of differing lube amounts/hardness/etc. Anyone who's done any amount of experimenting knows changing a load can/does/might affect impact for one rd.. then it'll go with the remaining impacts. If you require 'foulers' then your bores differ from mine." My foulers (as you call them) with a clean bore go into the group. Yours don't? Foulers needed when shooting after jacketed, dry bore and black powder. Can/does/might doesn't cut it, try more load development. "I likewise am interested in your lack of response per the ES's of your crimped loadings. Like most I've discounted crimping due to the extra step and complication of the loading-- as crimping the forwward driving band front isn't going to promote alignment in my setup. It's just another step to add variation and runout in a loading. I thought your original reply suggesting a crimp would solve the inaccuracy of the original poster was more a problem of his setup and runout in his gun." The ES is in the above post if you would read it. And NO, your thought was incorrect. Second guessing doesn't get you any brownie points. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia