quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
I see the ole Castboolit boys are discussing stripping of cast bullets in rifle barrels. Molly even has a test to perform to prove this....that doesn't work. I can assure that it takes a lot of hard work to "strip" a cast bullet in a rifle bore and frankly I haven't been able to do that. I've shot a variety of alloys at very high velocities then most all those birds over there. I even deliberately tried to strip pure lead cast bullets in a 7x57 Mauser and couldn't do it. About the only way I think that you can see evidence of a cast bullet trying to "get a grip on the rifling" in when they are loaded in a rifle that has a tremendously long free bore and the bullet gets a good run at the rifling before engaging it. Much like what we have in revolvers. You can definitely recover bullets shot from revolver that on the nose end show the bullet slipping trying to get a bite in that rifling.

Molly I've mentioned the 7x57, I'll mention the 7mm-08 at 2800 fps with the 50/50 alloy, the 6x45 at over 2400 fps, the 6.5 Swede to 2800 fps (and we know how fast the twist is in that too!!!), and a 7 twist Colt HBAR over 3000 fps. All with 50/50 alloy. I've also done harder and softer alloys and mentioned the pure lead in the 7x57.

I think leading leads many to think they have stripped the bullet in the rifling. I've recovered bullets from all these and have a special water tank that I shoot into and have not yet found stripping. My most recent water test was the 6x45. Ask 45 2.1 about those.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
I forgot something wheeler. I know what molly "meant". He was talking about the wider rifling groove markings starting at the front of the bullet. What he doesn't doesn't know is his terminology. That's not stripping, that is the bullet trying to get a grip on the rifling. Stripping is when the bullet won't take the rifling and turn, but rather shear off the parts that are in the rifling groove and the rest of the bullet rides the bore or land tops all the way out of the barrel leaving the rifling full of alloy.

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
I forgot something wheeler. I know what molly "meant". He was talking about the wider rifling groove markings starting at the front of the bullet. What he doesn't doesn't know is his terminology. That's not stripping, that is the bullet trying to get a grip on the rifling. Stripping is when the bullet won't take the rifling and turn, but rather shear off the parts that are in the rifling groove and the rest of the bullet rides the bore or land tops all the way out of the barrel leaving the rifling full of alloy.

It doesn't have to strip completely off, just enough to let hot pressurized gases past then you lead, that's why a GAS check is there to help minimize stripping/widening of the grooves at the base. Mollys terminology is just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
I forgot something wheeler. I know what molly "meant". He was talking about the wider rifling groove markings starting at the front of the bullet. What he doesn't doesn't know is his terminology. That's not stripping, that is the bullet trying to get a grip on the rifling. Stripping is when the bullet won't take the rifling and turn, but rather shear off the parts that are in the rifling groove and the rest of the bullet rides the bore or land tops all the way out of the barrel leaving the rifling full of alloy.

It doesn't have to strip completely off, just enough to let hot pressurized gases past then you lead, that's why a GAS check is there to help minimize stripping/widening of the grooves at the base. Mollys terminology is just fine.

You not knowing this is why you could never get accuracy at high velocity with cast bullets. Don't give up, keep reading and trying someday you MAY be able to do it, maybe.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
So I guess according to Molly's terms that all revolvers just about strip all their cast loads?

No I don't think so. Improper terminology is often what starts myths.

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Originally posted by swheeler:

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Originally posted by SmokinJ:
So I guess according to Molly's terms that all revolvers just about strip all their cast loads?

No I don't think so. Improper terminology is often what starts myths.

Myths, I guess you would be the guy to know about myths!

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
I know this much: gas checks on revolver bullets are a complete waste of time and money. No less an authority than Wayne Gibbs told me so. There is no reason for one on a revolver bullet, period. Hensley and Gibbs cut moulds for them because that was what the custome wanted, and the customer is always right. If, and that is a big IF... if you cast the bullet of the right alloy and size it to groove diameter, there is no way in hell it is going to strip.

Wheeler, you have no idea what you are talking about, from what I have read in this thread. Nothing personal, just an observation.

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
I know this much: gas checks on revolver bullets are a complete waste of time and money. No less an authority than Wayne Gibbs told me so. There is no reason for one on a revolver bullet, period. Hensley and Gibbs cut moulds for them because that was what the custome wanted, and the customer is always right. If, and that is a big IF... if you cast the bullet of the right alloy and size it to groove diameter, there is no way in hell it is going to strip.

Wheeler, you have no idea what you are talking about, from what I have read in this thread. Nothing personal, just an observation.

Doubless I'd say you are blowing smoke, pun intended. A revolver bullet sized to groove diameter ONLY has a chance to survive if the throats are sized the same or VERY slightly larger. Even then if you hit it with a fast powder/acelleration it is going to skid unless it is really hard. If the throats are smaller than groove diameter then you are are shooting an undersized bullet down the barrel anyways, so if you are lucky you can bump your SOFT bullet up in the forcing cone with your fast powder. Kind of the retard way to do things, hit and miss, and they are still going to skid before they grab. BUT we were talking about rifles at high velocity, something I do believe Joe does know about, all BS and antagonizing aside. So get back on topic here.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
I know this much: gas checks on revolver bullets are a complete waste of time and money. No less an authority than Wayne Gibbs told me so. There is no reason for one on a revolver bullet, period. Hensley and Gibbs cut moulds for them because that was what the custome wanted, and the customer is always right. If, and that is a big IF... if you cast the bullet of the right alloy and size it to groove diameter, there is no way in hell it is going to strip.

Wheeler, you have no idea what you are talking about, from what I have read in this thread. Nothing personal, just an observation.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
I know this much: gas checks on revolver bullets are a complete waste of time and money. No less an authority than Wayne Gibbs told me so. There is no reason for one on a revolver bullet, period. Hensley and Gibbs cut moulds for them because that was what the custome wanted, and the customer is always right. If, and that is a big IF... if you cast the bullet of the right alloy and size it to groove diameter, there is no way in hell it is going to strip.

Wheeler, you have no idea what you are talking about, from what I have read in this thread. Nothing personal, just an observation.

Doubless,

I've had gas check revolver molds, gave them a try, and they were just something that I really didn't need. I could do all I wanted with plain base bullets.

There aren't many set rules in cast bullet shooting. Each gun is different in itself. The one they think is a set rule is that you have to always shoot the fattest bullet your gun can take. Take the revolver for example and say you have cylinder throats that are bigger then the barrel groove diameter. The dummy who's in this thread with us unfortunately will tell you that you HAVE to fit the cylinder throat. That isn't always true. You are shit out of luck if the cylinder throats are smaller then the groove diameter though. I have a Model 25 SS&W 45 Colt with a .451 groove diameter. The cylinder throats are .456. I have shot bullets sized at .456 alongside bullets sized at .452 and there was no difference in my revolver. Same is true with semi auto pistols. I have four 30 Luger in various name manufacturer, one being a Luger. The Luger has a .311 groove and the other three have .309 grooves. I shoot bullets sized .313 out the Luger which it does best with. The one particularly accurate pistol, a Benelli, prefers the bullets sized to .310 and visibly shoots them more accurately then sized to .313 which it will handle and chamber. The remaining two also prefer the smaller size. I've found this on many center fire rifles. I had two commercial 7x57 Mausers that shot extremely well with bullets sized to .284 which was the groove size too.

There are no hard set rules...you have to find what you gun likes. Most people that can't get their gun to shoot, or it leads, right away turn to a harder alloy. It's more the bullet fitting then the alloy. By nature revolver are going to let the bullet skip a little until the rifling grips the bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
If anyone is advancing a theory that you get any melting of the bullet whatsoever in a gun barrel, I strongly disagree. I have several thoughts as to why it can't happen. To begin with if you quickly pass a cutting torch over a bullet, it doesn't melt. I said quickly--you can't do it quickly by hand in comparison to how little a time the bullet is in the barrel. But even at your real slow speed doing it by hand you didn't melt it. If a bullet gets hot enough to melt ANY, the whole bullet will be so hot that the lube would be liquid. Liquid lube at the rpm a bullet spins, there would be no lube left on the bullet---even a dog can shake off water--a bicycle tire spins off water--dog and bicycle all but stopped compared to that spinning bullet. Take a bullet and put it in a can, add some gunpowder and ignite it. It will burn a few seconds, but the bullet didn't melt. Remember it was exposed to heat for seconds in that situation. In a gun barrel it's not there even a blink. In that situation it will burn off the lube---no melting--no lube. Recover a bullet and it still has the lube which tells me it didn't get as hot when shot as it does when placed in burning powder--which didn't melt it. My bottom line is gas checks are pretty much a waste. I have shot several gas check designed bullets without the gas check and found no accuracy loss nor leading of the bore. I'd be at a loss to say what good they do.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Ray,

Nobody said anything about melting like Scott just said. About the thing I've seen get scorched, not melted, are the insides of plastic shotshell hulls.

All I wss trying to define is that if bullet "skips" a little trying to get started into the rifling, that's not stripping. Here's a good analogy for stripping. Think of a threaded bolt that you are going to screw into a threaded hole. Say the first few thread in the hole are worn away and the next few are loose before you hit good thread. That would be the bolt trying to get started, trying to engage the threads. Now say you thread it all the way down, over torque and strip it, then that is stripping. Sometimes you can strip bolt threads so bad you can literally pull the bolt straight out. Molly just used the wrong terminology.

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:
Yes it do, I think, maybe, oh hell I can't remember. I was thinking of a different kind of stripper anyways

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:
Yes it do, I think, maybe, oh hell I can't remember. I was thinking of a different kind of stripper anyways

Hmmmmmm, you're thinking of a stripper that stripped her outer jacket off. I know that type of concurrence very well. Usually they spin around a brass pole and strip off that outer jacket. Funny, after watching the outer jacket strip off, I feel quite good about it.

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:
Yes it do, I think, maybe, oh hell I can't remember. I was thinking of a different kind of stripper anyways

Hmmmmmm, you're thinking of a stripper that stripped her outer jacket off. I know that type of concurrence very well. Usually they spin around a brass pole and strip off that outer jacket. Funny, after watching the outer jacket strip off, I feel quite good about it.

Yep and that's when the lead starts to age harden for me!

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
you guys talk about hot pressureized gas escaping and then get leading. That has implications of speaking of melting and I say bs.