Hi Wes and All!

First, I want to thank everyone who has stood so graciously by my side. Wes... I thank you for your kind words. I think we are going to be good friends... And you stick by your friends...that goes a long way with me. That makes this quote 'glow'.


THE COMPANY OF JUST AND RIGHTOUS MEN IS BETTER THAN WEALTH AND A RICH ESTATE. EURIPIDES

But now lets let this die. He hasn't hurt me. . . I don't mind his disagreeing with me. I actually learned a lot from his posts...but maybe not what he was trying to teach me.

I was a blunt youth once... the chances I lost because of it would make you cry...So Richard, I wish you well. I find life is easier when you temper honesty,compassion,thought,and humor together.

Dale



LET US ENDEAVOUR SO TO LIVE THAT WHEN WE COME TO DIE EVEN THE UNDERTAKER
WILL BE SORRY. MARK TWAIN

ha Ha Ha Ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

I think Me_Plat is just somekind of nut lets just be mean to him because he isn't one of the clique and doesn't want to be.

To quote Cool Hand Luke*, "What we have here, is a failure to communicate."



* in reference to the WHOLE thread, not aimed an any particular individual.

Well I just got to this thread and I thought the man asked to talk about cast bullets? I moved to Wilmington, NC 10 years ago from New Jersey, my salvation. I now live in VA looking at the Blue Ridge Mountains. When I first moved to the South, I had a bit of a problem understanding some real southern talk, I asked some locals for a translation and they laughed and said, He's talking "Swamp", Heck we can't make out most of it. So I learned about Swamp. I still can only make out every third or forth word but it works for me. Now about cast bullets.... JB

This entire thread is a gross waste of web space. Someone do us the mercy of deleting it. I tried to lighten things up a little and it just escalated, mostly due to argumentative intolerant people.

Anyway, back to my other reply... McCoy was the first company to introduce an automatic oiling system for steam locomotives. When a new engingeer would climb onto one outfitted with the new device, they would supposedly point and exclaim "That's a real McCoy!"

That's my little bit of useless information for the day,
Ian

>That's my little bit of useless information for the day,

There's no such thing as useless information.

Eee-gads, some folks got their panties in a bunch!

I have never been to the south, something I'll have to rectify one of these days. I have had the opportunity to work from folks from the south, the north, the east, the west, and many countries of the world. I managed to get along with the vast majority of them. They come in all sorts, nice, mean, smart, too well educated to see their stupidity etc.

What I do know is that you can choose to be offended or not. It is based on your own self confidence, or lack their of. If you're comfortable with who you are, then folks can poke all sorts of fun at you, and you can laugh along with them. If you don't have much self esteem, then you'll be constantly looking for people making offences at you when none were intended. I also know that friends and close associates can get away with saying things to eachother that strangers wouldn't be given the same lee way for.

Since I'm living in Alaska, yall are southeners from my perch

Cast em and shoot em

Ian, there's some diagreement about that as there is about many etymologies. "The real McCoy" is also traced to a rumrunner who operated in the New York area in the early part of prohibition. It's certain that "the real McCoy" was used in the NY area in the 20's to differentiate smuggled liquor from the numerous counterfeits. It's quite possible that this was a borrowing from railroad usage or even a mere coincidence.

This stuff fascinates me.

I like my lead small so I can wrap it in paper. It makes a nice package for surprise gifts.

As to the rest of this, SUMBITCH! No matter where I live, the neighbors always have an accent. I never do. I don't laugh at folks because of their handicap, I laugh with them. They laugh at me. Who gives a rat's ass?



Oh, and Meplat, regarding your first post on this thread, I'd guess if you've never heard anybody speak like that in the South, you haven't traveled much in these parts. Some regional dialects in the South actually make a two sylable word out of "yes". A cousin near Clarksville, TN. actually used three on occassion. I couldn't come close to mimmicing that sound. So what I do is listen to the noise and let my brain filter and enhance. Then it makes sense. Because of the time lag I talk slowly too, and they think I'm one of the family so to speak. Except for Jive.

I shoot a 45-70 Handi-Rifle using Pyrodex and pure lead cast bullets. The two bullets below began life as the Lyman 480 SP weighing 501 grs in pure lead. They left the muzzle at 1150 fps. Any animal hit in the vitals with such a bullet is a dead animal. The one on the left I dug from a dirt bank at exactly 210 yards. It weighs 493 grs, a weight retention of 98 %. Of more importance, it mushroomed to a diameter of 7/8" x 1 1/8".

The bullet on the right hit a gravel road at 50 yards and bounced into a dirt bank. It weighs 459 grs, a weight retention of 91 %. It became a buzz saw-like projectile 3/4" wide and 1 7/8" long.

DigitalDan: I haven't heard anyone talk like that to the extent that Ole DE was writing. I have been a few places though even if I am a dumb southerner.
I am sure I am not as well educated as some on here but I know put downs as well as the next.

Why didn't ole DE say Northener talk about Cast Bullets and give the Southern people a break?

hmmm.. never was meant as a putdown..I would have to be putting myself down...but I have a Ray Stevens cd of "yoopers" ( you know- "The 2nd week of Deer Camp.") that is terrific! Would you like to try it? Dale

Meplat, a direct answer is that you elected to take offence to the nature of his post, and as a result we have 3 pages of pointless conversation for the most part. You were the first to respond to the post if you recall. You may dissemble if you choose, however, I doubt you're as thick as those you defend. Afterall, you found this place right?

Here's another perspective. I live in the south, have most of my life. There are a lot of things to enjoy down here, and only a few sacrifices required. One of those sacrifices in the state of Georgia is living in a place with one of the lowest levels of academic achievement in the nation. It seems to upset the residents from out of state much more than the locals from what I've seen, and buddy that's sad. And it's indefensible on any level. And they talk some serious trash, southern drawlin' hick-ass redneck trash throughout the state. It is often incomprehensible. If ignorance were a capital crime the population in the south would be a lot lower. A whole lot lower. If you take pride in your heritage, I hope you have the courage to have shame as well. There is plenty to go around. Oh BTW, you want to hear a Yankee joke? What do you call it when all the politicians from Mass. are at the bottom of the Gulf Stream? A really good staht.

You wanna talk boolits or not? I said I liked mine small and wrapped in paper, what's your bag?

Hi DigitalDan! How small are we talking about? The smallest I ever saw PP was 30. They didn't do too bad either ( nope, wasn't mine- I haven't been bit by that bug ...yet!). I would think 22 PP would be possible but oh so frustrating with big ol fingers like I got.

I have Matthews book on PP the 45/70. A fairly good book but I was disappointed...so little on 30 cal stuff.

I have reread the articles by Col. Harrison until the book has fell apart. So you know my knowledge is 30 or more years old.

His big point was he could make a complete hi performance projectile.... I can make gas checks and thus can make a complete projectile also....but his work was impressive enough that I would someday like to try it.

Would this mold in 30 we have ordered make a good PP for larger bores? ( .314?) I wonder.... Might be fun to try.

Another idea.... PP the 311410 bullet ( .3095 as cast) and try it in the Mosin Nagant rifles at hopefully 2000fps+....hmmmm... Dale

I think your idea with the Nagant has merit but don't have one to toy with.

I read Mathews' book as well and found it a decent primer on the subject. I suppose that many of us have fat fingers and that is one of the reasons PP is mostly found in larger bores. I do know that small bores are practical but have not fooled much with it. I did try patching some jacketed .224 SMK's once for giggles, it wasn't that tough.

I have limited experience with the 45-70 via a friend, and am somewhat at a loss to understand why any handloader would buy jacketed bullets for the cartridge as a result. His 1895 Cowboy Gun by Marlin will do MOA off a bench with 540 gr bullets at 1600 fps or so. My more direct experience is with a Ruger 77/44 which is nearly as accurate with 300 gr. at 1535 fps Avg velocity. Terminal performance on both is amazing. My bullets are swaged pure lead, his 1:20 lead, also swaged(he uses cast bullets(patched) as well, and they shoot just as well for him). Point of interest here is that I start loosing accuracy around 1600 fps, he doesn't, probably due to the alloy. My loads work quite well in a Ruger Redhawk also, so any concern you might have regarding use of PP bullets in revolvers or leverguns are not borne out by my experience.

Some comments about Mathews' work. I think for the most part Paul knows which way is up, I haven't shared some of his successes however. I find water better than spit and a lot easier to produce. I think that perhaps the 2000-2200 fps range can be achieved with pure lead but you need a slow twist and that stands against small bore guns. The 3000 fps limit for alloyed bullets is almost certainly doable, but I speculate that BHN will be critical as you really do need the bullets to obturate to achieve any accuracy. I like his lube recipe, but think that virtually any lube that will absorb into the patch will work, at least well into velocity ranges I have not traveled much. I did blow a patched RB out of my .44 one day that crossed the Chrony just a hair shy of 2400 fps, but I haven't a clue as to where it went. I assume it stripped the rifling but there was no leading, so who knows?

On the subject of small bore paperpatching, I think it is perfectly viable, and after my SMK caper would not hesitate to try it a bit down the road. I know of fellas that PP the 30-30 with that Lyman mould you mentioned and do well with them. I believe they use something akin to the Lyman #2 alloy.

The most pertinent factors are I think twist rate(slower is better) and bullet dimension. As Mathews stated, sizing smaller bullets tends to distort them, so you would do well, or at least better, to cast to bore dimension with them and avoid sizing completely. I would also speculate that in the .224 bore you might want to patch bullets that are very slightly over bore size, perhaps .001-.002", and then patch with very thin paper. Dress pattern paper runs about .0015" and works in a 45-70 BTW. Looks a bit odd but it works. I say this about the .22's because of the earlier caveats and simply because of the small size and higher velocities you might expect. Sizing a thou or so after patching will dress up final dimension. All in all it is a very interesting diversion, and as Mathews said, they are the original controlled expansion bullets.

As one of the other fellows here at AR says, "your mileage may vary."

Hi! So much info I don't know which way to go first! I wouldn't buy jacketed slugs for a 45/70. Too expensive and I think it would be more fun to hunt with something you made anyway. All the stories I have read about hunting with nearly pure lead bullets say the performance is fantastic. And the old timers wrote that the 45/70 was useful on all N Am. game...... But I wonder about the big bears. I have never taken one with anything...so I can't have an opinion really.

I assume the alloy you use would determine the velocity the load would make.... ie obturate ( doesn't look right) to fill the grooves with patch but not deform/displace/unbalance the bullet. Also the bullet diameter should be bore size or ever so slightly bigger. Now all I know is what I read 30 years ago.... But is this not true today?

I would like to know more of the guys PPing the 30/30 with the 311410. That bullet is very useful at 1000 fps or less. Only if it would shoot at 2000fps!

As for Paul Matthews.... 30 years ago he did some fine work....This last book, while having more knowledge than I ever will, leaves me feeling it was thrown together.

Thanks, Dale

DE, I'm unsure of which book you refer to about Mathews, the one I have is called "The Paper Jacket". He does discuss small bores to some extent and in some detail but all of his first hand info is the bige bore stuff, 45-70, .375 H&H etc. He has written many books about lead and patched bullet shooting.



When shooting lead bullets, patched or not, they will all obturate to fill the bore and grooves IF the chamber pressure is great enough, and for soft lead it really takes only a bit. 1:20 alloy will obturate somewhere in the vicinity of 12-14KPSI if I recall correctly. BHN 30 would take a pretty smart kick in the pants I'm sure! There is a formula that as simple as it is forgetable( ), That will tell you at what pressure a given BHN will obturate. It is not dependent upon the use of black powder or smokless for that matter. Just plain old pressure. Perhaps another can provide that. The fact of obturation has no direct bearing upon what velocity you may achieve, but it has great bearing on accuracy.



Regarding your question/comment about bullet size. Bullets intended for black powder should in fact be one or two thou LESS than bore diameter. Those intended for smokeless, bore diameter to bore+.0005" per Mathews. I find this a good guideline but suggest that the success of you efforts to PP will be contingent upon your willingness to deviate from the guidelines. Every shot that goes astray is telling you something, it is up to you to "listen". I would follow his advice with a new project, one of which will be my Mod 94 in 30-30 not too far down the road...and be ready to adapt quickly after the first visit to the range. With it I will likely use the 31141 and expect to get 2000 fps or better out it. The issue will be accuracy and I expect no hurdles there either. The alloy may be a puzzle.



My technique for wrapping bullets went through 5 evolutions before I settled down. I started with cupped base bullets but do not use them now. I used to twist the paper at the base of the bullet, now I wrap with only 1/16th" which I fold over the base. I did not use card wads at first, now I do. To each according to its needs.



I dare say that I've never witnessed penetration like I've seen with these bullets. Damp loam in the berm backstop isn't much of a ballistic medium but my .44 will out penetrate my .358 Win(24" vs. 16-18". with 250 gr Hornady IL's on successive shots. Retained weight is typically 95% or better, penetration in the loam very straight of path. I do not expect to ever recover one from a game animal. I would use such bullets on Anything in North America, including bear, but I would harden the alloy a bit if I looked to punch through bone. An example of this is found in Ross Seyfried's most recent tale of shooting a Cape Buffalo with a rather interesting rifle of .45 caliber, a bullet of 1:20 alloy, 570 grains, paper patched and launched by 100 grains of Goex Cartridge. A .461(#2) Gibbs Metford on a Farquarhson action, a "Selous" rifle he says. He had concerns about penetration as well, but was confined to 1:20 due to constraints(relating to obturation) from the rifle. The bullet was recovered under the off shoulder hide. It was a dandy buff by the way!



Well, time to move on.....