Hi all, I've been loading a pile of 06's lately and have some of the cases strip lead and mash it onto the neck while seating. What is the fix for this? Do I need to bell the case mouths with an 8mm expander or something?

I would tell you to try two things.
1) Be sure you are seating the bullets "in-line" and not at an angle.
2) Get a Lyman M expander dye, and expand the necks to 0.001-0.002 smaller than the bullet OD.
The M Die also bells the neck at the top of its travel.
- or both!- Lew

.... and, if you are still scraping lead, then you must get the seating die opened up a little to compensate for your larger diameter boolit. ... felix

I've used my Lyman M-die for nearly 20 years....30-06, 30-30, 308, 7.62 x 54R, 303 British. I also have the RCBS expander/flaring die, and I think the Lyman is a far better tool. The Lyman's two-step expander is all that's needed in the 30 calibers--no "flare" required. If you DO elect to use the Lyman's flaring capability, it is ABRUPT--go slow, in other words. This same characteristic occurs in their "powder through expander" pistol die set--a real Godsend for the semi-progressive Ponsness Warren tool I use for handgun calibers.

I've also used the flaring die from my RCBS .30 Carbine set for ALL the .30 calibers, and the .303, and the .32 Special, and the .338, and ....! This has to be done by "feel", as the die's too short to allow a full press stroke with longer cases, but it's easy to do.

Tapered punches also work as a stopgap measure. I'd be inclined to get the proper Lyman expander if you're figuring on doing a lot of this.

Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1)

Well guess what guys? You all know I have a CZ 30-06 that shoot a very small hole at 100 yds with cast boolits. And I'm not lying about as I have no reason too. Well the guess what part is I don't do any of that stuff. Like I told Felix I don't weigh the boolits or each powder charge. Just load em and shoot em. You all are right about the Lyman M die. I'm just too cheap to buy one. Lar45 the one thing you should do for both cast and condom boolit loading is chamfering the inside of the mouth of the case. You can do this with a knife even. If you are doing this already then pay attention to what Felix said. I don't know about the rest of the guys but I try to seat my boolit with my fingers alittle to make sure it starts in the case and not have the heel of the bullet catch the edge which sounds like what is happening to Lar45. Someday I will buy a lyman M die.

Joe

Yeah, us BR guys never went into these M dies, but when loading pistol cases, I wouldn't even think of using anything but a M die, or a flairing punch of some sort. It's a requirement for reloading pleasure. ... felix

I'm no machinist, so if this is a dumb question, please be kind in telling me so.

Why not make a threaded shaft that will fit inside some old junk die? The shaft could be turned to different diameters, progressivly larger (e.g., .225, .286, .310, .325, etc) the farther up the shaft. So, a single shaft could be used to bell the brass of a number of calibers by just adjusting the depth of the shaft's insertion into the brass. It couldn't be universal, so several shafts would be needed (like, for the 45 ACP), but I can see a couple old dies gaining new life as belling dies in this manner.

Would this work, or is it too complicated and expensive to be worthwhile?

James....That is a solution and one I've been meaning to try...should work.

As you know, I've been messing with reloading with a couple of 310 tools lately.

Now, the bench is full of good stuff like RCBS Competition seaters and all that junk.

Surprisingly, I'm getting very good seating with the old simple 310 tool seaters. The only thing I find is that inside chamfering of the mouth is extremely critical.

I'd try the chamfering and then the "stepped" expander./beagle

This is kind of scary! I think our friend beagle is with the IRS! I know, because the only mail I get addressed to "James," is from the IRS. To the rest of the world, I'm either Jim or grumble. <GGG> (not counting Dad, Grampa, or less polite names, that is. <G>

I chamfer the inside of my casenecks too, but I still get occasional shaving, especially with unsized boolits. When I load up a big batch on my Dillon, it is a real nuisance to remove each round, monkey with the caseneck, then replace it for the next pull of the handle. Being able to use the 3rd stage hole in the toolhead as a belling stage would sure be handy, but buying separate dies for each caliber offends my frugal (read, cheap) nature.

I've thought about making a cone-shaped gizmo on my drillpress that would fit into a die to do the belling, but that would require all brass going through to be trimmed to a consistent length, and that offends my pococurante (read, lazy) nature. <GGG>

Just wondering.

[ 09-27-2003, 22:54: Message edited by: grumble ]

Nobody has mentioned the "needle nose pliars" as a belling tool. Every since I read about useing a pair to bell with on this site, that is all I have used. Works great and fast too.

I wanted to try that too, Chargar. But I never could figure out a way to attach the pliars to my Dillon. <GGG>

I believe Lee makes a tapered expander die I imagine to make it easier to neck up to a larger caliber when forming brass for another cartridge.
All pistol dies that I know of have a flaring step built into the expander so nothing is necessary here. Rifles don't because the expander ball goes pretty far past the neck. Lee's are somewhat different though. Me personally, I like to have as much of the neck possible gripping the boolit and if you use needle nose pliers you are tapering quite a bit of neck. The best thing to do , unless you're a machinist, is to just bite the bullet and buy the Lyman M die if you're having alot of problems shaving boolits especially cast, although it does happen to condoms too.

Joe

Grumble, et al.,

I built a tapered cone for belling the mouth from .22 through .458 . It's ok but the M die does better.

I have drawn up (in CAD) a multi-step "M" expander. It would take two separate shafts to get all I want. When I build one, and if it's worth it, ill send the drawings in to CASTPICS.

Tim, what do you think the two "stepped" inserts would be worth? Y'know, "if you build it, they will come." <G> There's no way I'll buy an 'M' die for every caliber I shoot, but maybe I could be persuaded to buy one die and a pair of your inserts.

Grumble,
On CNC equipment the set-up charge is most of the price. On a normal lathe, on each one the labor cost will cost. It shouldn't be too hard a project however. But time consuming. Orygun.

Hi all, I'm takeing this on here because I'm getting an error while trying to post a new topic.

I finished my first attempt at a home made chamber reamer today. I'm looking for something like a 3200 Hawk or 8mmGibbs. I started with O-1 and turned it to size, then put in the mill and cut 2 90deg flutes in it. I heated to a chery red and quenched in motor oil. I then ground reliefs and sharpened. I then noticed that the pilot was not true with the rest of the reamer. It looks like it warped about 1/8" off of center. I thought I put it fairly straight and fast into the oil, but maybe I could have been slightly off of straight up and down. Any thoughts on how to prevent this in the future? I ground the pilot down and tried the reamer on a short piece of barrel left from the muzzle when I did my sporterized Turk 8mm. It cut really good for about 1.5" then started acting up. Maybe I should have drilled out most of it, then used to finish it up. Was it not hard enough? If I quenched in water would it be too brittle? I picked up a 60deg cutter and might try a 6 flute next. How do I keep it from warping while quenching?
Any thoughts?

Yew all,

Take heed to Felix' advice! He knows.

One of Felix' gems was to use the Lyman VLD chamfer tool. This I did followed by use of the Lyman M die. Oh so slick and smoothe. I saved this from the Dear Departed (but not forgotten) CB board at Shooters.com .

Thank You Mr. R.

Best Regards To All, walltube

Grumble -
Let me finish out the drawings and get some quotes. If I were to do it in quantity, I'd make a jig to guide the cutter on the lathe so I could rough it in quickly and then finish cut each diameter to size.

Lar45
I have only thought about doing what you've just done. Would air-hardening steel give you the strength, it 'should' harden with much less warping.
What about starting with a commercially made reamer (of one diameter) and grinding down to the shape needed?

Lar45 -
Water quenching is abrupt. Oil is gentler.

Grumble,et al. -

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-1/82347/EXPAND01.JPG

first cut. Some dimensions obviously wrong, but it's the idea. Condensed it to one piece to fit Wilson expander holder (I think the shaft size is too large though).

Also, it's sizes are to fit what I shoot. Some thought should be put into short/long cases and pistol/rifle calibers.

TRK,
Idea looks good. the 15 Deg angle might be better at another angle but only use would prove that out. A 7.5 Degree wouldn't bell quite as much. Just some thoughts. The long and short cart. will definitely make production fun. There isn't much difference between 41, 44 and 45LC pistol cases. Also with many of the7mm, 30 and 35 cal rifle cases. May only get 2-4 sizes per adapter. Even making belling tools with 7.5-15 Deg angle there would be the same problem of length.
Hope this works out. I may play a little to see what might work.
Orygun

I still keep getting an error message when I try to post a new topic????

Trk, I may have to get some air hardening and see how it works. I did pick up a tapered reamer for $25. I may have to see if I can grind it to shape. I'm pretty sure I can get the neck and body right, but how would I get the sholder cut in and still have a sharp corner where it meets the neck? What about a pilot? Could I just grind the front to diameter, then polish each flute round so they won't cut, would that allow some wobble with the flutes and the rifleing? maybe gind undersized, then solder a short piece over it and turn to diameter?

I'd like to be able to turn out inexpensive reamers for those projects you don't want to spend a lot on.

I'd like to be able to use the Drill rod as it's only $3.00 for a 3' length. The first one seemed to cut a nice partial chamber until it went dull, but I had to grind the pilot way down to keep it from wobbleing in the bore.

I know a guy in town who runs a spring shop, maybe I'll pick his brain on the subject.

Orygun -
The 15d angle is just at the start. As drawn I've got the taper at .10" long by whatever the difference is between the two adjacent diameters, which in most cases turns out to be about 6d.

I've GOT to measure the M dies to see how large they go. Then measure the boolets I want to seat and determine how large to size so the springback size gives just the right amount of clearance.

I think I can standardize on the .200 long shank for each diameter, then pick the 6 or 7 or so degree leadin and calculate the step distances individually. That will keep a standard angle between diameters.

Keep in touch - there are a lot of good ideas around that just need a little developing.

Lar45 -

I like your thinking of being able to produce a cutter that will be cheap to play with. I'm beginning to accumulate a few tools with the intention of building a grinding/sharpening tool for such things as chambering and mould cherries.

It may take several different grind stones (or diamond wheels) to get the shapes we need, but you've raised the right questions on how to grind each of the geometries on the reamer.

I'd like to build a fixture that I could mount a template into to be able to grind the right profile on each of the 6 blades of the tool and repeat it for addtional tools. Then comes the thought of CNC - building the controller (only need x and y) myself.

Hardening and tempering is an art. When I worked as a tooling engineer, we had a company that had an excellent reputation for doing it right. Even very carefully would draw the temper 3 times on some of the moulds (of D2 steel) to get just the right temper throughout the mould.

The fellow you mention who does springs - should have some good insights.

You only need 2 Lyman M-Dies to do everything from a .22 Hornet or .25 ACP to a .50-90 Sharps. Buy one for a short pistol cartridge say .45 ACP, one for a long rifle cartridge, say .30-06, and a $6 expander plug for each calibre that those two don't do. Mix and match parts for intermediate length cases like the .35 Remington. I should mention that the standard long die's I.D. isn't big enough for the .348 Winchester and .50-90, so, if needed,order the .50-90 die.

More on custom M-Dies here.
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/39
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/index.htm

Bye
Jack

I'll vote for what Mrs. Sundog refers to as "needle nose plowers". Works great. sundog

TRK,
I never did like the angle that RCBS uses and Lymans angle is just tolerable. The smaller the angle the longer the brass seems to last. I used the 7 Deg angle on the expander I made for my 8x56R brass. I used a RCBS 35 cal pistol expander and cut it down to what I wanted. 7 Deg is about the min you can go. This is stuff I like to play with as it's only my time and is relaxing. Orygun

OK - 7 degrees it is. Still a few minor tweeks to do - final diameters at each step. The rest of it should be about the same as here.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-1/82347/UniversalExpander02.jpg