Hi all, I got to the range today with some 454 loads.
I shot all the loads out of my Raging Bull 6.5", I used the Lee C45-310-RF Win cases and CCI 200 primers. I normally shoot heavier boolits from Mountain Molds, but I thought this might be more useful with a normal heavy boolit.
WC820
26 - 1359
30 - 1570
32 - 1630 100% load density

Win 296
26 - 1150
30 - 1400
34 - 1600 100% load density

WC680
26 - 667 then squib
30 - 1050
34 - 1260 100% load density

WC852
32 - 790 100% load density unburnt powder in the barrel

I didn't shoot any IMR5010, the last time I did with the 45-70 BFR I put holes in the chrony display from the powder.

I didn't get out in time for the Postal Peestol, but I shot some targets for it anyway today. My scanner doesn't like Win XP, I'll see if I can take a picture of them.

Interesting comparison between WC820, often sold as "using 296 or H110 data," and 296. They're not the same! Interesting that there's a wider velocity divergence in the lighter loads than near max. WC820 works better for downloading than 296, which Winchester long recommended not to decrease from the recommended (maximum) load in .44 Mag, the only caliber I've loaded with it and paid attention to in the manual. 296 was the replacement for 295P, which Winchester used to use in factory loads for the .44 and .357 Magnums. George Frost in "Ammunition Making" says they got customer complaints about squibbing in cold weather (with bullets stuck in barrels) that was fixed by ditching the 295P for the slightly faster burning 296. That's why they say not to download it. He mentioned nothing about "SEE," "detonation," or high pressure problems from light loads with this powder.

That's good data, Lar45. Thanks for sharing it. Now I am tempted to try some of that WC820

Thanks Lar45, pretty much full house 454 loads. CCI 200s in 454 cases??? must of been hell seating those flush!! I know memory failure right. 400s would have seated much easier. have a good one.
Jim

Thanks, man, for that great info on showing how slow that 680 really is. I guess we have to limit that powder to bores less than 30? ... felix

How come?

The 7.62x39mm is what it was designed for.

It works well with cast bullets in the .45-70. Have to use a magnum primer.

Wish I knew what Ball powder Winchester has used to load their factory .45-70s. Wouldn't surprise me if it was 680, when they were making it. I pulled the 405 gr. SP bullet from one circa 1966-67 and it had a fine grained Ball powder of that texture in it, similar in appearance to what was in the .25-20 and .32-20 rounds I disassembled. (Winchester has published 680 loads for those calibers.) They discontinued 680 and dumped what was left due to low demand. Most of what was being handloaded then were high velocity rifle cartridges and standard pistol cartridges up to .44 Magnum, neither of which can effectively use 680. I think there's a lot more stuff in the middle now than there used to be.

I only stated what I did because middle thru slow speed double base ball powders work great (all around) at 35K CUP and above. I'm sure the military rounds make at least 35K. Why they put that stuff in the 45-70 is a mystery to me. Musta' had a ton of it left over in some vat or something. Not saying that it won't work, but it shouldn't be preferred over some other powder that could have been laying round somewhere more suited and just as cheap. ... felix

We use powders all the time that are out of their designed pressure range. WC860 and WC872 are right popular with cast bullet shooters, even in cartridges like the .45-70. They're running at pistol cartridge pressures instead of the 50K CUP of the original cartridges. For that matter, any of the "rifle" powders are well below the pressures of their usual applications in a cartridge like the .45-70. You'd have to stick with powders like Unique for them to be burning in their usual pressure range with Trapdoor and SAAMI level .45-70 loads. Even 2400 is usually running 35K-45K CUP in cartridges like the .44 Mag, and at SAAMI pressures in the .45-70 it leaves a bit unburned. But that WC680 at a Quickload-guesstimated 16-something PSI burns cleanly. Haven't seen a bit left in the bore or cases. (With Magnum primers.)

As for why they'd use it, IMR 4198 is a very good powder for medium-power .45-70 loads. There's not another Ball powder in that general burning range. 680's the closest. That's why I thought 680 would be a natural fit for the .45-70.

Mtngun, I have a bunch of 820, I'll bring some by and I also have an estimation of 820 for quickload that gives a pretty close estimation of velocity, modified 296 powder profile.

Very good stuff there Lar45! Got any idea of the pressure generated by that 32 gr. WC820 load?

P.S. What's your opinion of that Lee design for a novice caster in 454? How does it differ from the Lee 300RFN mold in their catalog?

Thanks!

The 454 was made for small rifle primers right? They fit just fine for me.

Quickload estimates 55kpsi for the 32gn WC820(if my powder profile is anywhere near close, it does give a good estimation of velocity in a number of pistol cartriges) The cases extracted easily enough.

The Lee bullet seems to cast easily enough. The nose is a tad on the large side though and give an occasional tight fit when chambering. IT turns in acceptable accuracy and looks like it would do the number on anything in the lower 48.
I do have to set the mold on the bench before casting to align the mold halves or I get misaligned ugly boolits. I should have gotten the 6 cavity mold. I thought this was a standard offering, I may not have remembered the number right? CRS?
The bullet that give the best accuracy in my 454 is a plainbase 340gn 70% design from mountain molds. IT's put several cutting the same hole at 50yds. I can't seem to get them all to go there all the time though. Need more practice.
I used the lighter bullet because I thought it might be of more use in this case.