Unlike some forums, where the moderator will determine which posts are appropriate, and move those he deems not appropriate, as well as perhaps editing or deleting things he deems unpleasant, thats not how things work here. Saeed and I, as well as the other moderators, look at these forums as a place that those with a common interest, whether it be African hunting, or casting boolits, can get together to chat.

I believe Saeed once said that he looked at these forums as an electronic version of the tea houses in his country where men would gather to chat.

With the influx of the shooters refugee's I just figured I'd remind all. To those that may find off topic posts not to their liking, great, just ignore them.

Paul - I think most will agree that the Cast Boolts folks from Shooters are some of the most polite around - it was a self-regulating on-going discussion; much more polite than some of the other boards. Not too particular though about being rigidly on-topic.

As an "Old Shooters" hand, I can say with some authority and experience that the Shooters group in OK with politics, but not OK with religion. Move into the area of religion and many get very, very uncomfortable and remind you to say on topic. But politics..that is pretty much OK..Go figure!

Chargar,

Has that not been the case with the general population you come in contact with? When you introduce yourself as a minister, don't people behave differently? We constantly fight wars over religion....it's a deeply personal and very powerful motivator. Not suprising at all to me that folks are uncomfortable with it....sad, but there it is......

Regards.......

bitsandwedge..For the reasons you mention, I try and dodge the question "what do you do" when it comes my way in a casual conversation. Most often I say I am an Attorney (which I am) or a Mediator (which I am) or a retired rat racer. When folks identify you as clergy their whole demeanor changes. It is very noticable and very irritating. It makes it almost impossible to be accepted as a human being and have a normal conversation on any subject. Folks I deal with on a regular basis, quickly get by it, and treat me like everybody else. I am not the sterotype "preacher" and at times folks have a hard time seeing me in that roll.

Now the question is why do they respond like that? For the most part, people react like that because the mere presence of a clergyperson brings to the surface all kinds of conflicts and unresolved issues in their life. They are afraid the clergy will say something that will make them feel guilty, unworthy or in some way "less than". As much as I don't want to be, my mere presence at times becomes an inflicter of guilt.

I have found that persons with strong religious beliefs (of whatever kind) are eager to engage you in a discussion. The folks that raise the shields and look for a quick way out of the room are those folks who have no strong beliefs and are riddled with all kinds of inner conflicts and issues, they don't want to face.

Folks take care of their retirment, set up family trusts, do estate planning, write wills, sign medical powers of attorney and living will, think through their career in advance, and in general plan for the future. Many of these things in the future are "hope so", maybe so" things. These same folks who prepare for the "maybes' in life defer or sweep under the rug the only certain thing in life and that is death.

The presence of religion/spirituality always raises the issue of death and eternity. Folks want to shove those thoughts back under the lid of concious thought as soon as they can.

I am very comfortable with who and what I am and feel no need to apoligize to anybody. It would be nice to be treated like a human being. It would be nice to be invited to go hunting with the boys, but that doesn't happen. They are afraid the presence of the preacher will spoil their fun. They think they drink and tell off colored stories. Hell..I can drink any of those sissys under the table, beat most of them in a fair fight (I am 6'4" and weight 280), outshoot any one of them with rifle, pistol or shotgun and know 101 Farmer's Daughter stories. Oh well..life goes on..

Charger, it all boils down to "many are called, few are chosen". We folks are anywhere between pure evil, and pure bliss. It's a spiritual war, and we are just caught in the middle until death. Then it is one or the other, no inbetweens. Until then, some of us will walk out of the room, some of us will argue a little, and some of us will fight. To which end of the spectrum that is chosen is strictly personal and has nothing to do with bystanders. So, you being the preacher has really nothing to do with it. ... felix

Chargar

Jump the Red River and head up my way.....I'd be honored to take you hunting.....provided you enjoy calling predators and such!

People are just people.....doesn't matter what they do to make a living!!!

LOL......outstanding post! You did satisfy one suspicion- your picture on castpics is "esquiresque" although I did not 'til now know that for a fact. Where is your firm? What school? I work with an independant resort on the Monterey Bay, originally from Philadelphia and a humble product of the PA State system....go Joe! If you're ever in Central CA, let's do all of those things you mentioned.....but bring your sticks, there's a track or two where I live that are somewhat playable......

Best regards.........

Charger,

I know the shooters group is a good bunch, I participated there off and on for several years.

I agree that it is unfortunate that religion cannot be brought up w/o feathers getting ruffled. I'm glad to hear that you are a minister. I also agree that it is most unfortunate that people don't realize that the clergy are human as well. I agree with the reasons you state for that.

I guess I'm the exception to the group you mention, because when the priest that married my wife and I, and baptised our first two children mentioned about coming up to hunt together, I was overjoyed at the prospect. It hasn't worked out yet, but I would like to do that in the future.

Guys..Thanks for putting up with my rant.

Felix...I am not certain what you said, but it did sound sort of deep and profound.

Bltsandwedge...I graduated from Univ. Of Houston (Texas)Law School. I don't practice law, although I maintain my license. I do some Mediation work.

Go Cougars! Off to a good start.....

Charger, the Red river and the Arkansas River, should you cross them on the way north, are not that deep, nor are they profound! You're welcome up this way anytime. GonHuntin, Shooter223, Sundog, and me are all within a shout from Houston, allbeit, a 10 hour 70 mph shout. ... felix

Some of that stuff above amazes me REALLY !What it all boils down to is ,that you can scale down every group of people (shooters in our case) and end up with a perfect match of society , thousands of opinions , thousands of estimates and a bunch of idiots here and there(I`m one sometimes...)
I`ve been in this forum for quite some time now and I met some really nice people as well as stubborn individuals, I can live with that.The fun part is 95:5 for the fun , of course !Politics as well as religion is a matter of education and information .The ability to discuss with someone the whole damn night and have different opinions , but still be FRIENDS , is what seperates the men from the boys! Thanks for being with you and a big hearty thank you to the moderators , J�rgen

Guten Morgen Jurgen! Wie gehts? Wo whonen Sie? Ich habe im Stuttgart fur ein Jahre gewhonen (Ja, mit US Army).

Not too common that we see european participation here. What is of interest to me is the legal environment in which you practice our hobby. I'm under the impression that gun laws are quite a bit more restrictive in Germany than they are in the US. Is this accurate?

Best regards and Chuss.........

Chargar,

Now, let me say this with all conviction; you are welcome to come and hunt, shoot, preach, loaf, or most anything you wish, here at my place and I extend that invitation to all of the 'Shooters' boys. That isn't meant to exclude anybody, just that am quite ready to accept those from the inner circle, due to what I have experienced in our social intercourse via the net. If somebody makes an ass of themselves, I'll be the first to show them the road and bid them a fast farewell and rebuke not to return. I had to deal with that once before, didn't like it, but did it.

As for religion, even the most rebellious is generally a spiritual person on the inside. I am.

I know that God exists.....He has too. Why? Well, take a look around around you. Get down on your knees and watch the ants, as they scurry about their business.....it's all very orderly and purposeful.....you think an ant's brain is complex enough to figure all that out? Hardley. Go out on a clear night and behold the Heavens. It is not pure happenstance, but the work of the Great Articifer of the Universe, the Creator, the Spirit we call Almighty God. Nothing begets nothing, but Some Thing, begets all things. God gave us all a brain, use it. God came to Moses and said, "Come, let us reason together........". Reason? yeah, as in, let's think and talk about this matter.

Folks have their own ideas about eternity. Many believe you live and then you die.....Finis, The End, Zap your dead, etc. Fair enough, we certainly can't prove it a wrong theory as none of we mere mortals have ever returned from the dead. It is said that Jesus did. For those of us who believe this, we rely on faith and faith alone to accept it as a true report.

Then there are those who think Jesus was just a nutty Jew, who made preposterous claims and got nailed up because he deserved it. These folk's ancestors are still fighting amongst themselves, claiming universal persecutuion and awaiting the appearence of a new King to sit upon the throne of David. This is their right and who knows, maybe they are correct.

Then there are folks who worship the the products of Creation, the rivers and the birds and the rocks and the sun and the moon. Again, that's their perogative and i wish them well.

Then there is another group who wear towels and sheets, are pissed off at the world and claim their connection to God is via a bastard son fathered by Abraham and later got themselves a 'prophet' to proclaim their validity. We see the products of their 'faith'. Enough said.

Some like to worship brass idols and cows and some....like to worship man and man alone.

Bottom line though is the fact that, we're all in it together. Let each man work out his own salvation......whether it's through a priest or rabbi or preacher or shaman, chants or whatever.

When Christ was approached by the Pharisees and asked, "tell us Master, what about those without the Law and the Prophets....(meaning, what is the end of those folks who have no knowledge of God, as they knew it). Jesus answered and said, "every man is a law unto himself.......".

We all know right from wrong, whether we are from the most civilized society or the wilds of the the deepest jungle....and that is a our charge, to live righteously amongst all men.

Okay, sermon over, pass the plate and where's the fried chicken?

Brother Jump,

It's good to have you over here. That was a wonderful post, and I must say, seems a bit subdued from the jump I knew over at the coffee shop, harr harr

As I recall, you recently had a baby, or rather had some part in that To me, watching a baby being born, and contemplating the whole shebang of conception, and the critter growing inside mama is the simplist and clearest proof anyone need of there being a higher being.

Outstanding, Jump! ... felix

Well said Jump. ohshooter

OK, so now we've gotten this going on religion, how about cats?

(Doesn't it cause you to wonder about your cats to consider that they'd eat you if they were bigger than you?)

Jumptrap,
Your eloquence overwhelms me! Great post!

Charger,
I'd be right proud to hunt with you anytime.

Have you ever wondered why the world can't get along as well as we on this bb?-JDL

Thanks to Jump and others for their acceptance.

Great post, Jump, except the part about the Pharisees and Jesus I can't find in my Bibles. Got a reference?

There's a related passage in Romans 2:12-16.

Charger, you're just hangin around with the wrong boys I guess. Anyone willing to hunt honestly is welcome around here. I don't ever recall it being the preachers among us that made me nervous.

It's not the folks who devote their lives to a specific moral framework who are usually dangerous, It's the ones who're operating with no moral framework at all, or feel they're somehow "above" the basic guidlines most of humanity lives by. BD

Notricochet,

I just made that one up.........not really. It is paraphrased of course, but follows the original quite closely. Perhaps your reference to Romans 2 is correct.

I left my biblical studies a number of years ago and as i grow older, my memory fades.

I ought to have had the forethought that there would be some scholars in the audience ready to dissect all the semi-qoutes in a search for bonaficey and I failed to make footnotes for every referece made.

While your studiously perusing the Scriptures, find 'Rapture' for us. It is the most commonly referred to term that does not appear at all within the King James version or any other version of the Bible extant that I am aware of.

Sure sounds good to most southern Baptist preachers while they are espousing Hells Fire and Damnation for the wicked and and eternal bliss for the redeemed who will be suddenly caught away in the blink of an eye. That's bullshit pure and simple. Before you make any judgments on my religious background...rest assured, it has all been Baptist of one flavor or another, I know their doctrines inside out. Basically sound, but flawed, as are the rest.

One of my favorite quotes:

Talk is cheap-- but it takes real folding money to buy oats that haven't been thru the horse at least once!

So how does this apply to REE-Lig-ON? Simple. Ya heard a lot of words plattered about this and that, this GAWD and that GAWD-- but in the end, it's the day to day ACTIONS AND DEEDS of those carrying these 'words'. For most often that REE-Lig-ON this worn like some shirt, taken off and exchanged as the situation suits.

Religion and GAWD are methods of controlling the masses without armies, guns-- and another form of taxation which ends up in about the same place. A moral code does not have to rely on some nonsense fear of damnation to some mythical 'hell' to set a standard of behavior which can translate from culture to culture. But the average guy in each is still back in the jungle in real terms...

NO BS, you have defined the definition of the jungle exactly. Right on, my friend! Lot's of folks appear to be in that arena so well described by your post. ... felix