JJ,
as a (semi) train student of biology, the scientist in me would say, with a grin, that a kodiak, a brown , and a grizzly are common names for phenotypes.. it's been nearly 20 years since i took a bio or genetics course.... so this can be faulty

then again, at that time, all the biology books put BEARS and DOGS into different families... when one look at a honey bear (arkansas) and a big chowchow demontrates a far closer relation.. and that has been revised.


yep.. SOME mules are fertile.. and some ligers/tigons.. in the 99% percentile however, they are not able to bred with the hybrid... breding back to the parent species, while rare in occurence, if not "freakish".. but two mules breding is.

the scientific view on the brown/griz/kodiak is that these are 100% genetically the same species.. BUT the area phenotype (expressed) changes the perception of the species...

there's no "species" of true horse... though there are breds... and I think that breds is what we are actually talking about

jeffe

You have nailed the crux of the conversation. Dogs are dogs but not all the same breed! Many of then are very much different in appearance, size, shape, color, etc etc. They may be the most diverse animal population on earth with interbreeding capability.



Domestic farm hogs have been bred for size weight and body shape for so many years that they actually appear as a completely different species then what they started out as. When they revert back to the wild most of the visual features change due to the dramatic increase in exercise and less food. After a few dozen generations they are nearly back to the original visual and tempermental wild animal they originated from. In Texas for example this has gone on for 200 plus years and countless generations. Add to that population a few pure European escapees from game farms or deliberate introductions and you have frequent "european look" wild boars that are genetic throwbacks to the Pure stock. At least in appearance.



I suppose my feelings come down to a couple issues here. First the catch phrase "Russian Boar" is probably not at all accurate but has somehow come to be the defining term for the ultimate trophy boar. It makes sense that it would be something other then "Feral" which is also how pidgeons are refered to! Who could possibly be as proud of a hog called a Feral as they would be a "Russian".



I think it would be more realistic to refer to a wild boar with the European "Look" as just that, A European boar, or simply a Wild boar. For some reason the name Russian Boar has stuck with Americans who wish to describe a "Look" rather then a genetic fact. I doubt that many,... if any free roaming wild hogs in the USA that were born here in the wild have any possible link to the USSR. I would suggest that the original wild hogs which broke free from their game farm fences in Tennessee and New Hampshire were actually from Germany if you read the story of how this happened. Those existing in California and Texas were released from the Spanish settlers who very likely brought them from Spain not Russia.



There was an unverified Document that the pigs on Catalina island were from Russia and many were trapped and relesed in Northern California a very long time ago. I'n not sure if anyone alive today knows the real story or could even prove it. The Russian Boar has been given a lot of reference for a "breed" in the USA. Which very likly lives in very small numbers in the USA, for which they have an insignificant roll, or population.



Now much like the brown and Griz the European wild boar has no idea of it's boundry. What is the actual difference between a wild boar from Turkey and Russia? From Germany and Russia? From Turkey and Iraq or Iran? The reality is they are the same animal with different geography, just like the brown and griz. I just don't give much credibility to the phrase "Russian Boar" when I hear it. Look at the post I have on this site with the boar I shot in Tennessee. I cannot even count how many folks have said "wow that's a big russian boar" well I correct them and say nope, it's from Tennessee and has no relationship with hogs from Russia. This is just a wild boar from Tennessee. I certainly don't think of it as a Russian boar I killed it here after 100 plus years of breeding history with what ever hog species was here, it's not Russian it's an American wild boar, or a Razorback, but not a Russian!

JJ,
since the domestic hog is the same species as a russian (feral crossbreding means same species, or EXTEREMLY close as the case of the liger/tigon... and only certain examples are feral)and all the normal characteristics adapt... that is, if you take a domstic breed, raise it in the wild, it will, in very few generations, (3 years) take on the survival characterics of the PHENOTYPE rather than the genotype. phenotype is expressed genes, rather than all genes present (genotype)

a great example is the mule.. the donkey and the horse are 99.999 the same genotype... but, what's different makes them different species.. and, speaking of horses, the shetland pony is a HUGE phenotype difference than the percheron (sp) ... yet I had a riding HORSE that was a result of a frisy shetland stalion.... thank GOD she got the big body and feet, rather than big head, small body.....

the russian boar, like the wolf and the dog, are wild exmaples of a breed... not differing species... and, the fear of man that wild beasts have (for good reason) is not a survival trait for a domestic hog (that's how they got to be domesticated)

having been treed by BOTH feral dogs and arkansas "razorbacks" I'll take the russian anyday.... unless cornered

jeffe

jeffe, I'm not sure I 100% follow your post. Domestic hogs and "Russian" boars are not the same genetics and don't have the same chromosome count.

There are several different genetics involved with wild swine all being somewhat different. Because the USA did not have an indiginous species of swine and everything we have here is imported from other countries the term "Russian" a poor choice. Much like the American Human population comes from all over the world, so do the swine. The majority of hogs in Texas came from Spain which makes them a European strain but certainly not "Russian".

Sus scrofa has four subspecies, each occupying distinct geographical areas. They are Sus scrofa scrofa (western Africa, Europe), Sus scrofa ussuricus (northern Asia and Japan), Sus scrofa cristatus (Asia Minor, India), and Sus scrofa vittatus (Indonesia).

Feral hog (Sus scrofa) abundance and distribution have been increasing in Texas in recent years, yet information on hog biology and population dynamics has not kept pace. I review preliminary research on hogs conducted in post oak savannah, gulf coastal prairie, and south Texas plains ecoregions. Range and habitat use, food habits, nutrition, and disease status of feral swine in Texas appear to follow patterns observed elsewhere in North America. Reproductive and demographic data are urgently needed to understand growth rates and to properly manage hog populations in the state.

Free-ranging hogs, including those of domestic origin, wild origin (European wild boar), and hybrids, heretofore termed feral hogs, of the Old World family Suidae are distributed in 20 states, primarily in the Southeast. In Texas, the distribution is primarily in the eastern half of the state. Abundance and distribution of this exotic species have been increasing in Texas in recent years, and concomitantly, scientific and management interest has also increased. However, data on biology and population characteristics of feral hogs in Texas are very scarce. Preliminary research has been conducted in 3 ecoregions of the state post-oak savannah, gulf coastal prairie and south Texas Plains.

The "Russian boars" or European hogs that are mentioned on the "Texas feral hog facts" sheet were imported without the foresight of the effects they would have on this country. Soon the people involved with this endeavor realized these hogs were going to be a problem. The game ranchers were not prepared for such a beast. This is an animal that knows no boundary or border. There are very few fences, then or now, that will contain these massive wedge shaped creatures. This resulted In the loss of many of these large European hogs to the wilderness. Eventually they interbred with other wild hogs.

I have quite a lot of research data on this subject and I can Email you some if your interested. I have it electronic, but don't want to post an endless string of data in this thread.

boar hunters in argentina there are several types of wild boars but i think all have the same adn sci says that at least.in the north jungles a red small bushpig ,in the swamps of santa fe a type that eats caracoles a big swamp hog,in bahia samborombon a cimarron hog big and like a russian boar but very long hair,in la pampa pure russians short hair,in la patagonia snow pure russians long hair very big ,in cordoba mountains and bush huge crosses in la ventana mountains huge feral hogs in the coasts of the patagonia huge hogs ,in the north can be of every colour possibly.juan

The text refering to the chromosome counts was in a Texas study as I recall and it listed the various species of hogs from around the world with lots of detail about genetics. The idea behind the study was to determine the amount of wild european blood line that could be detected in a texas feral hog. I have a hard copy or an electronic copy of this here someplace. I know I printed one of them and it was about 3/4" thick stack of paper when I was finished. I see if I can hunt this down and either post it or Email it to anyone interested.

I agree that odd number chromosome counts should prevent successful breeding, that is true in probably 99% of those animals. However as posted earlier Mules can still breed with horses on occasion when the mix is just right. Kinda reminds me of Jurassic park when the mathmatician stated that Nature always finds a way. I still remember when I heard that line form the movie how I laughed and could relate to the things I have seen in my life.

As luck would have it I have found the doc and can cut and paste it here for all to see:

S. scrofa has been studied extensively in Europe, North Africa and in the (former) U.S.S.R., and much comparable research has been conducted on the introduced, mostly feral, populations in the U.S.A., Australia and New Zealand (Briedermann, 1990). Available data indicate that the basic diploid number of 38 chromosomes (similar to domestic pigs) is found in eastern and south-east Asian populations, but this number decreases by Robertsonian translocations over the species' extensive range such that the continental European populations have only 36 chromosomes (Bosma et al., 1984). Eurasian wild pigs are also markedly variable in size, pelage and some other characters, and an enormous number of subspecies, and several different species, have been described. However, in a major review of the genus Sus, Groves (1981) argued that many of these named forms were synonymous or, in some cases were actually naturalized feral or hybrid (with S. celebensis) populations. Groves accordingly recognized only 16 subspecies, including a previously undescribed form, S. s. davidi, from Pakistan and north-western India, though he also drew attention to a small, as yet unclassifiable, skull from Central Province, Sri Lanka, which may represent another new subspecies. Only a few of the currently recognized subspecies, such as the insular taivanus (Taiwan) and riukiuanus (Ryukyu Is., south Japan), have clearly defined ranges, and precise data is lacking on the range limits/intergradation zones of many of the continental forms. Groves and Grubb (this vol.) have therefore distinguished four 'subspecies groupings', based on both geographic and morphological criteria, as follows:


As you can see the domestic hog has 38 and the wild boar 36. As I recall since they are both Even numbers cross breeding still works. If one was even and the other odd then it would not. I'm not claiming this as fact but only recalling what I remember from school, funny the worthless data my brain retains!

JJ,
we totally agree.. and i have no misconception that any hog i shot in texas woudl even KNOW what a slav tounge was.. or care that he was hit with a 308 or a 7.62x54r.....


yep.. breds.. and that the environment generally favors some survival types.. and that type tends to redevelope...


cool... have a great weekend
jeffe