Snuck up on a food plot last night to find one HUGE boar monopolizing the place. "We can't have that" I thought so I tucked a 70gr TSX from my 5.56 bolt gun in behind his shoulder. He did not even react to the impact, he simply spun around and trotted out of the food plot. I went to where he was standing and found a great blood trail, 30 yards later he was there, stone dead. I had no doubt it would kill him but what amazed me was the amount of blood to trail and there was no exit.

Perry

Good shooting and congrats!

It's odd to me that a deer in TX weighs (on avg) all of 100 lbs but a .223 just doesn't work well for them. I guess pigs just aren't that tough .


Regards,
Scott

Congrats. I'm envious, since my luck didn't carry over two years in a row. That's an interesting report - the good blood trail, 30 yds, and didn't exit. Interesting info. I presume range was reasonable. I've always figured that if I used a 223, for anything other than varmints, I would try to figure a way to use the 70gr TSX, or maybe the 62gr TSX, or just choose another rifle.

I'm curious - did you butcher the hog?

Best regards,

KB

Hell no I didn't butcher him. A matter of fact i threw the gloves away that I touched him with. He stunk so bad it was unreal! I road back by him today and the buzzards haven't even touched him.

Perry

Did he have good cutters?

Nicely done!!!

And you mean you didn't want to dig through that tularemia-infested carcass to show us the recovered bullet???

He has huge cutters. He conveniently died next to a tree so I am going to wire his jaws to that and revisit him in a year.

I thought about digging out the slug but he stunk so bad I did not want to mess with it without latex gloves. I seriously did throw away the gloves I was wearing.


Perry

On a side note...and I'm not trying to start a discussion here (as it has already been talked to death). That 5.56/70gr TSX combo killed that huge boar stone dead within 30 yards of where he was hit on a 100 yard shot. I kill 100 hogs and 40 deer a year without loosing one of them. I shoot neck shots and heart/lung with 100% recovery. Why in the world someone thinks it is not a good combo escapes me. Granted our 6.5+ year old bucks only weigh 200 lbs but still, heart/lung them and they are dead within 40 yards...same results as the 308/168gr TSX combo. I'm baffled. I have only killed one other boar this size, why kill something that size if your just gonna dump him, but it was a heart/lung shot at 325 yards with the same combo. He went 40 yards and was stone dead. I don't get it...it works.

Perry

Well, you have started a discussion, and IMO at a real good starting place too. This brings out one of the main points that I've tried to make without much success. Seems to me that if your rifle shoots the 70gr TSX well (twist) then that gives the issue of deer and hog hunting, with a 223, different perspective.

As I recall, nobody has said the 70gr TSX is not a good choice. I may be wrong about that, but I don't remember reading it if it was said.

To distinguish what you have said, your experience, from the controversy, invarably the bulk/main/general discussion of 223/deer/hogs does not seperate the various 223 bullet types as suitable or not suitable.

IMO, of course, none are suitable, but also IMO the 70gr TSX is tops, in the 223 class. In every discussion I've seen and remember, within a thread centered on using the 223 for something besides varmints, most participants don't acknowledge that there is a big difference in actual performance comparing varmint type bullets to the 70gr TSX.

Your post supports that, but I'm sure some goober will report that he shot a 300lb hog with a 45 gr varmint bullet at 300 yds, and it died within 30 yds.

Anyway, if I wanted to use a 223 for deer or hogs, I would much prefer the 70gr TSX over anything else in 223, especially over a 45gr hornet bullet for example. Bullet design and performance are important whatever the cartridge/game, but more so, IMO, with the 223.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Well, you have started a discussion, and IMO at a real good starting place too. This brings out one of the main points that I've tried to make without much success. Seems to me that if your rifle shoots the 70gr TSX well (twist) then that gives the issue of deer and hog hunting, with a 223, different perspective.

As I recall, nobody has said the 70gr TSX is not a good choice. I may be wrong about that, but I don't remember reading it if it was said.

To distinguish what you have said, your experience, from the controversy, invarably the bulk/main/general discussion of 223/deer/hogs does not seperate the various 223 bullet types as suitable or not suitable.

IMO, of course, none are suitable, but also IMO the 70gr TSX is tops, in the 223 class. In every discussion I've seen and remember, within a thread centered on using the 223 for something besides varmints, most participants don't acknowledge that there is a big difference in actual performance comparing varmint type bullets to the 70gr TSX.

Your post supports that, but I'm sure some goober will report that he shot a 300lb hog with a 45 gr varmint bullet at 300 yds, and it died within 30 yds.

Anyway, if I wanted to use a 223 for deer or hogs, I would much prefer the 70gr TSX over anything else in 223, especially over a 45gr hornet bullet for example. Bullet design and performance are important whatever the cartridge/game, but more so, IMO, with the 223.

KB

Good distinction and I completely agree. I must also say that anyone trying to make a bullet do something it was not designed for, ie. varmint bullets on medium sized game (regardless of caliber), lacks ethical reasoning and needs to gain some respect for their quarry.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
I thought about digging out the slug but he stunk so bad I did not want to mess with it without latex gloves. I seriously did throw away the gloves I was wearing.
Perry

I know what you mean. The guys I hunt with leave the big boars too, or drag them to a particular spot where they generally dump guts etc. I was surprised to see that the buzzards ate everythng else in the area, but left one big boar to rot in the sun. Coyotes had not touched it either, and I saw it after it had been there about three weeks. I didn't get to follow-up on the big boar I shot and left in the cactus, so I don't know if the critters ate it or not. I just thought it was odd, that much meat, and no apparant interest from yotes or buzzards. Maybe they were waiting on the worms to soften it up. That is one especially ugly sight, and smelly too - a boar dead for three weeks, melting lard, etc. into the ground.

If I ever go hog hunting again, I'm going to wear those throw-away latex gloves for butchering.

KB

perry,

The shooting of game with tiny bullets is just a stunt. Not impressive.

Lets see, you baited a pig and shot it with your .22!

C R,
Let's see. When in Texas, do as Texans do. Last trip, I baited hogs with corn, and had intentions of whacking several with reduced loads from my 458. We used up seven bags of corn, but I saw no hogs.

Had I seen hogs, like I did in Jan 2010, I would have been equally impressed in 2011 as I was in 2010.

Sure, I would like to hunt hogs by sneeking around in the woods, or waiting for some crossing at a regular trail, or perhaps opportunistic from a deer stand, or a back field road, from the truck. Heck, I would even enjoy spotlighting them, or hunting with dogs, or from one of the big swamp buggies like they do in Florida.

I'll hunt feral hogs by any legal way, and I'm opportunistic. Are you not? Use archery. Give yourself a challange. Heck, it's challange enough for me to just find them.

To me, the 22 thing is a seperate issue. The means of hunting them is different to me from what I'm shooting them with. If I shoot a hog or deer, I want assurance that it will be properly whacked, so that's why I like my 308, and why I won't use a 223. In the right hands, and the right bullet, Perry has given an example of how it can and has been done well.

I have been considering a Hawaii hunt for next year, or maybe later this year, but still investigating posibilities. One interesting aspect of the State game laws there is the minimum muzzel energy for legal rifles is 1200 ft lb, which I'm pretty sure excludes the 223 with any bullet.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Conservative Rifleman:
perry,

The shooting of game with tiny bullets is just a stunt. Not impressive.

Lets see, you baited a pig and shot it with your .22!

...and you talk out of your ass. Not impressive.

Perry

Stop teasing us and post a pic!

Years ago I had the chance to shoot a bunch of pigs and feral goats with the wrong ammo out of my terrible shooting Mini-14. I used FMJ's and Rem Core Lokt's and I went for double lung shots to test a friend's theory. Double lung shots with 0 expansion resulted in a dead animal within 10 seconds every time. If the animal was unaware and I stayed hidden it would usually die within sight. However, 10 seconds was a long time if the animal was running or thick cover was near, and recovery took a little longer.

Bullets be darned...let's see a picture of the big stinky boar

Matt

I'll take a picture tomorrow...or just perform another "stunt" and kill another.

Perry

Dead is dead is dead. Nothing stunt about it. You know you don't need me to say this, but keep slipping that pill in there and the results will be the same

Hunt well and hunt often!

Matt

Id have shot him in the head, but thats just me. Shot placement is about 1000 times more important than the type of bullet or velocity in my opinion.Sounds to me like you put it in the right place, good job Perry.

quote:

Originally posted by Farrier Matt:
Id have shot him in the head, but thats just me. Shot placement is about 1000 times more important than the type of bullet or velocity in my opinion.

Well, what is best to consider first, if planning to take a particular rifle hog hunting? Is ignoring shot placment something one plans on, or assumes? I didn't think so.

Instead, shot placment is a given, and assumed by everyone I know, to be the best that can be had, given circumstances. It's second nature to a real hunter.

So I don't get it. When someone starts in on this shot placment business, and head shots, my first impression is that he is the type of guy who ignores something a real hunter would consider before leaving home with the rifle of choice, which is the design purpose and limitations of the actual bullet in use.

There are several tools of the rifle hunter - rifle, scope, sling, cartridge, etc. A deficiency in any one tool may or will increase the probability of a failure. Likewise for skills - patience, marksmanship, judgment. Shot placment falls in the latter catagory, and so does the judgment to choose a bullet designed for the purpose. Saying shot placment is primo importance, and ignoring bullet design is lameo, IMO. I give no credability to anyone who says shot placment - shot placment, blah blah, and doesn't place bullet seletion at the same plane.

Saying you were successful with a FMJ or varmint bullet is one thing. Saying it's ok is another. Saying that shot placment can make up for poor choice in selecting a bullet for the task, is just BS. That is slob hunting.

BTW, I would have tried a head shot too, but I don't go around saying that shot placment trumps bullet selection.

KB

Most of the folks I hunt with wouldnt carry anything, gun or bullet wise, that wasnt up to the task to begin with, so that wasnt really a concern as far as my post went. After bullet quality, and assuredness of a rifle being capable of a certain amount of accuracy, next up is, guess what, shot placement. A hog shot under the ear with just about anything is dead, that cant be said with center mass shots. I agree, bullet quality, and a weapon that is accurate enough to hit the point of aim are both very important, but shot placement trumps them all. A 223 in the ear kills a lot faster than a 45-70 in the butt.

quote:

Originally posted by Farrier Matt:
Most of the folks I hunt with wouldnt carry anything, gun or bullet wise, that wasnt up to the task to begin with, so that wasnt really a concern as far as my post went. After bullet quality, and assuredness of a rifle being capable of a certain amount of accuracy, next up is, guess what, shot placement.

A 223 in the ear kills a lot faster than a 45-70 in the butt.

Yep. I figured that's what you meant.

Regards,
KB

quote:

Originally posted by Farrier Matt:
Id have shot him in the head, but thats just me. Shot placement is about 1000 times more important than the type of bullet or velocity in my opinion.Sounds to me like you put it in the right place, good job Perry.

Here's the thing with ear holing them...you then have to move them. I almost always do that to save on meat and mess when cleaning them.
As I watched this guy I knew there was no way to move him by myself so I decided to heart shoot him knowing he would leave the clearing (which was actually just a roller chop that has got some greens popping up from our recent rains, one idiot here calls that bait). The plan came together perfectly!

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by Farrier Matt:
Most of the folks I hunt with wouldnt carry anything, gun or bullet wise, that wasnt up to the task to begin with, so that wasnt really a concern as far as my post went. After bullet quality, and assuredness of a rifle being capable of a certain amount of accuracy, next up is, guess what, shot placement.

A 223 in the ear kills a lot faster than a 45-70 in the butt.

Yep. I figured that's what you meant.

Regards,
KB

+1 here

This is the reason all my rifles are sighted in with TSX's. It is a bullet I have found will perform even in the toughest, most non-ideal situations. There is no doubt in my mind when I grab a rifle to hunt with that it is capable of the task with out limitations, with in reason. We cleanly killed 10 deer, 1 rattle snake, 3 coyotes and 3 hogs this weekend with the 5.56/70gr TSX combo. All except 2 hogs were heart/lung shot and nothing went further than 25-35 yards. it is not a stunt it is a proven performer.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by Conservative Rifleman:
perry,

The shooting of game with tiny bullets is just a stunt. Not impressive.

Lets see, you baited a pig and shot it with your .22!

Looks to me like it was a successful hunt on all fronts.

quote:

Originally posted by perry:

+1 here

This is the reason all my rifles are sighted in with TSX's. It is a bullet I have found will perform even in the toughest, most non-ideal situations. There is no doubt in my mind when I grab a rifle to hunt with that it is capable of the task with out limitations, with in reason. We cleanly killed 10 deer, 1 rattle snake, 3 coyotes and 3 hogs this weekend with the 5.56/70gr TSX combo. All except 2 hogs were heart/lung shot and nothing went further than 25-35 yards. it is not a stunt it is a proven performer.

Perry

Hwat damn, I'm in the market for a 223 AR with 8" twist. Uhhh Huuuh

I'm assuming that 8" twist rate is correct for the 70gr Barnes. Is that correct, or is faster yet needed?

Really, I've thought about it seriously, but just can't bring myself to do it - buy a rifle for shooting one bullet. I have looked at the 6.8 SPC, in the AR, and I think that's the minimum that I would be happy with. The 95gr and 110gr Barnes 6.8mm bullets have better SD, etc. than the 223 bullets, and still give enough energy out to 300yds, which is further that I plan on shooting. Even the best of the 223 bullets can't measure up to what the 6.8 does easily, and with a large variety of bullets.

Yet, if what I had was a 223, the 70gr TSX seems like the best for deer and hogs.

KB

The 6.8 is a fun caliber. I shoot the 110 TSX and have taken a lot of game with it, good combo under 300 yards. On game I haven't seen a huge difference in lethality between the the 5.56 and 6.8. I guess with match bullets you might and that is what the 6.8 was designed around.

1:8 is sufficient, my buddy shoots a Tikka and they work great in it. All mine are 1:7.

As far as the "one bullet" thing goes I'll weigh in.
I have yet to see what my one bullet doesn't do. We shoot tons of coyotes a year with it and darned if it doesn't kill them right there, usually with a lot of their guts on the outside. I thought it would be too hard a bullet for varmints but it is not at all. It expands within 1.5" of penetration so the energy dump on small critters is huge. I guess if you wanted to save pelts there would be better choices because it really leaves a huge exit. They are obviously too expensive for plinking. I shot a soft shell turtle sunning at about 100 yards with it and it exploded, that was pretty cool to see. I honestly don't have a need for multiple loads with the hunting I do.

Perry

Sounds like you got it figured out Perry. Ive been wanting to try the Barnes in my 25-06. They seem like a great bullet, theyre jsut so much more expensive that its hard to justify it. Good shootin, and keep up the good work, seems like yall have a real hog problem down thier, and need to thin em out some. Kinda similar to what we have in south FL.

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
I have yet to see what my one bullet doesn't do. I honestly don't have a need for multiple loads with the hunting I do.

Perry

I can see a big advantage there. Usually, in developing loads and choosing THE load, for any particular rifle, it settles down to ONE load anyway. Sighted in for that ONE load, it can be ready to go, and counted on. It's only practical, in my experience.

Your experience with the 70gr Barnes has served to give me confidence that I'll be happy with something like a 6.8 SPC. That may seem odd at first, but previously I had thought that even the 6.8 was too little and light for deer and hogs. My thinking is that if a 70gr 223 TSX bullet gives you that kind of results, then surely a 95gr or 110gr 6.8mm TSX will be enough for the job. I tend to use too much gun, rather than minimize.

I've been hesitant to get an AR because I also figure the weight and blast, etc. of the 308 is just more than necesary, but nice to have. After all, my main reason for having an AR would be because it's handy and carrying a brick isn't my idea of handy. I dunno, since I lack experience with that type of firearm, and it's a lot of money to experiment on.

KB

True on the $ aspect, then throw in optics. How about a 6.8 bolt gun with a 20" bbl. Have it threaded, add a can...now your cooking!

Seriously though, a 6.8 is a pretty versatile cartridge at realistic hunting ranges. It is definitely not too light for deer and hogs. You could use the 85gr TSX for varmint and the 110 TSX for medium sized game. I use the 110 TSX for everything. Like you say, one load and your ready to go. I will probably wind up having a 6.8 bolt gun made for my 7 year old and she'll probably use it her whole life.

Perry

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=213788169

Can this.

Thats a nice rifle. Not sure if its nice enough for 900 bucks, but I like the looks of it. I think something like that would be real handy.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=213788169

Can this.

Mmmmm. Pretty tasty!

I have heard rumors that the Ruger's have old chambers and twists??? If you're reloading I don't know if that is even a consideration though.
My thought was to have a M700 or CZ re-barreled and bolt face opened up. Heavy contour with threads for a suppressor. One of my 5.56 bolt guns is an M700 with a 16" heavy Douglass bbl. I have an OPS INC 12th model can on it. It balances very well and is deadly accurate.

Perry

Yea, it's a lot of money, plus the scope. The only way I can justify that much for a shooter in that class is something like perry suggested - for his young daughter, where she will likely use it for many years.

I already have a Ruger stainless bolt action in 308, 20" PacNor barrel, which is quick and handy. It's what I consider as close a it gets to the ideal for hogs and deer. I would have to come up with some reason, that I can't think of now, to haul around a $900 pea shooter bolt action instead.

It's nice to dream and think up these things, but another matter throwing money at it.

BTW, I just added up the costs I have in the custom Ruger 308: I got a good deal on the action $200, Barrel installed about $500, Hogue stock $125, optional metal coating $130 = $955. Oh yes, I almost forgot the Timney trigger installed - $150. Total $1,105. It adds up fast. If I could find a Ruger out-of-the-box that would shoot as well, I wouldn't buy a custom barrel, but so far the only way I've been able to get the accuracy I want is to go custom.

I think I should get some good use out of it, before thinking of something different.
Heck, it's brand new, and I haven't even hunted with it yet. I'll bet it likes the 150gr TSX, since it has a 12" twist rate.

Now all I need to do is find some hogs to shoot.

BTW, I would realy like to get into shooting suppressed rifles.

KB

Sounds like you already have a great set up! If that were my set up I would spend my $ on a suppressor. I have a similar set up in a M700 and LOVE it. A 20" 308 is about as all around as it gets! A suppressor sucks up most of the recoil of the 308 and really makes it ear tolerable.

Perry

I use the 70gr Barnes X in my 22/6mm. The buck I shot this year entered in front of shoulder and exited right in front of the opposite ham. It has PLENTY of penatration out of my gun at 3750fps. I would think that it would do ok in just about anything that would stabilize it.

thanks
224TTH

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Snuck up on a food plot last night to find one HUGE boar monopolizing the place. "We can't have that" I thought so I tucked a 70gr TSX from my 5.56 bolt gun in behind his shoulder. He did not even react to the impact, he simply spun around and trotted out of the food plot. I went to where he was standing and found a great blood trail, 30 yards later he was there, stone dead. I had no doubt it would kill him but what amazed me was the amount of blood to trail and there was no exit.

Perry

What is your estimation of the pig weight? What is the twist of your 223? What is your velocity with te 70grain TSX bullet? Have you tried any of the lighter wieght TSX bullets in your 223?

Weight of the pig was, est, 220-300 pounds. I'm 6' tall, weigh 205 and regularly engage in manual labor in my profession. I grabbed the hog by the front hoof to spin him around for a better look and did not budge him. my bbl is a 16" Douglas with a 1:7 twist. Velocity of the 70gr TSX is 2750 fps and have used both 53gr and 62 gr TSX's. I like the penetration of the 70 gr TSX over the 62gr. I have a lot more pass throughs with the 70gr.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Weight of the pig was, est, 220-300 pounds. I'm 6' tall, weigh 205 and regularly engage in manual labor in my profession. I grabbed the hog by the front hoof to spin him around for a better look and did not budge him. my bbl is a 16" Douglas with a 1:7 twist. Velocity of the 70gr TSX is 2750 fps and have used both 53gr and 62 gr TSX's. I like the penetration of the 70 gr TSX over the 62gr. I have a lot more pass throughs with the 70gr.

Perry

Thanks.

I have an 8 twist do you think that is enough for the 70 TSX?

A hunting buddy of mine has a Tikka with a 1:8 twist and it shoots the 70gr TSX just fine, under 1 moa at 100 yards.

Perry