Anyone have a reccomendation? This is my go-to deer gun, presently has a Leupold 3-9x (older model) I'm looking to upgrade and want a larger diameter for dawn/dusk...but some scopes seem just too long for my short lever gun? I don't mind spending some $ for a quality scope...
Have a physical look through the products of the big three European makes (Zeiss, Swarovski and S&B) as a starting point and sort of benchmark.
From there, if you want to save a bit of cash, compare them to the "second tier" of Euro glass manufacturers ( Meopta, Khales, Docter) and see what you think.
If I were you, I would buy the very best fixed power scope I could afford from the top tier manufacturers, rather than a variable from the second at the same sort of money.
I had a Meopta 7x50 that did me for three years and three continents. I upgraded to a Zeiss 7x50 and got about an extra 5-10 minutes of usable light at either end of the day.
I had a VX-111 Loopy variable with a 56mm objective on another rifle (Mainly a target rifle)and the thing would give up a good 15-20 minutes before the Meopta; I simply don't take it out for deer any more.
Having said that the B&L Euro Diamond ( I can't remember exactly what they were called) wasn't too bad at all when I tested one but I was unable to do a side by side comparison with anything else at the time.
Posts: 11731 | Location: London, UK | Registered: 02 September 2007
At a lower price point, look at Nikon Monarch and Zeiss Conquest. I give the edge slightly to the Zeiss Conquest. That 3-9x40 is an amazing value at the price.
At the higher price point look at the Euro stuff as Ghubert as suggested. As you will notice, that last little bit of quality gets really, really expensive......
LWD
Posts: 2104 | Location: Fort Worth, Texas | Registered: 16 April 2006
joester: Where do you hunt? Here in Texas, as in many jurisdictions, the legal shooting hours are one-half hour before/after sunrise/sunset. With the exception of a day with extremely heavy overcast, almost any scope of reasonable quality will allow you to sight on a deer during this time frame.
If you'll do the math on exit pupil diameter, going to the outlandishly obese 50mm objective buys you very little in additional low light performance. Once you hit 6mm or so of exit pupil that's about all you can use, and you can do that with a 40mm objective at 6.6X, which is plenty of magnification for low-light shooting.
If you are in a jurisdiction where you can legally hunt at night, then the European-style 8x56, which yields an exit pupil of 7mm (more than most people can use) is about optimal, but very specialized. However, if you are (1) over 40, or (2) have ever been a smoker, or (3) have most any kind of vision requiring correction, then chances are that your maximum pupil dialation will be well under 7mm, making any exit pupil of the scope that exceeds that amount irrelavent to its apparent brightness.
Posts: 13266 | Location: Henly, TX, USA | Registered: 04 April 2001
I read recently that the average maximum pupil dialation is 3.8mm for a male in his 50's. I used that line with my wife to buy better optics so I could see better, but she didn't believe me. Go figure.
Posts: 620 | Location: Colorado | Registered: 04 January 2005
Originally posted by Stonecreek: joester: Where do you hunt? Here in Texas, as in many jurisdictions, the legal shooting hours are one-half hour before/after sunrise/sunset. With the exception of a day with extremely heavy overcast, almost any scope of reasonable quality will allow you to sight on a deer during this time frame.
If you'll do the math on exit pupil diameter, going to the outlandishly obese 50mm objective buys you very little in additional low light performance. Once you hit 6mm or so of exit pupil that's about all you can use, and you can do that with a 40mm objective at 6.6X, which is plenty of magnification for low-light shooting.
If you are in a jurisdiction where you can legally hunt at night, then the European-style 8x56, which yields an exit pupil of 7mm (more than most people can use) is about optimal, but very specialized. However, if you are (1) over 40, or (2) have ever been a smoker, or (3) have most any kind of vision requiring correction, then chances are that your maximum pupil dialation will be well under 7mm, making any exit pupil of the scope that exceeds that amount irrelavent to its apparent brightness.
To a certain extent I agree with you Stoncreek but to my eyes a 8x56 gives a subjectively brighter image than a 6x42 from the same manufacturer, with the 7x50 being the best compromise between magnification, size and light gathering. Whether this is due to some factor like the "Twilight factor" or simply a bit more mag I don't know, but it's there.
The other point I will make is that the top Euro makes have much better coatings and glass than the Leupolds I've seen.
Leupolds tend IME of course to white out more easily than the top Euro scopes.
In that respect I am thinking that the better glass of the Euro scope is more important than the size of the exit pupil?
Posts: 11731 | Location: London, UK | Registered: 02 September 2007
I would get a 3x9x50 Zeiss Conquest. It will look large on your gun but it will work. Check out Camera Land for their demos and save a bunch of money. Talk to Doug about your needs.
Posts: 3073 | Location: Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: 11 November 2004
A pair of 7x35 binoculars have a 5MM exit a pair of 7x50's have a 7.143MM exit. I have both of those sizes in older NY made B&L's. The 7x50 have the reputation of being great at night and were used on ships. I have sat on my front porch at night and given them side by side comparison. I cannot detect one speck of difference. Now a cow or horse with larger pupils might could, nbut not a human. Getting a large objective scope for increased night vision is vastly overrated.
Posts: 3811 | Location: san angelo tx | Registered: 18 November 2009
I took a look at Camera Lands demos and the 3x9x50 is only available with reticles that will be hard to see in low light. They do have 3.5x10x50 scopes for $629 that are awesome. About a year ago three of us got together with a table full of high ticket scopes. We set all at 6 power to evaluate since not all were equal in magnification. All were 30MM tubes with 42 through 50MM objectives. Our test group included S&B, Zeiss, Swarovski and Kahles. Our conclusion was the scope we preferred was the Zeiss Victory. The second choice was all over the place with one person selecting each one of the remainder with Kahles being shut out. We tried a Zeiss Conquest for fun and came to the conclusion it was really close to the high ticket scopes. I would buy the Conquest and use the money you save to get started on a high quality pair of binos since they are really important to extend your hunting time. We try to shoot older deer and I don't know how to do that without good binos.
Posts: 3073 | Location: Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: 11 November 2004
My sincere thanks for all replies! My best deerstand is deep down on a brushy north slope, its murky there on a sunny day, plus I need to ID 3 antler tines 1" or more on one side to be legal...so light gathering & clarity are vital...I'm sure I'll go for a bigger-belled Zeiss or Swarovski...
Originally posted by LJS: I took a look at Camera Lands demos and the 3x9x50 is only available with reticles that will be hard to see in low light. They do have 3.5x10x50 scopes for $629 that are awesome. About a year ago three of us got together with a table full of high ticket scopes. We set all at 6 power to evaluate since not all were equal in magnification. All were 30MM tubes with 42 through 50MM objectives. Our test group included S&B, Zeiss, Swarovski and Kahles. Our conclusion was the scope we preferred was the Zeiss Victory. The second choice was all over the place with one person selecting each one of the remainder with Kahles being shut out. We tried a Zeiss Conquest for fun and came to the conclusion it was really close to the high ticket scopes. I would buy the Conquest and use the money you save to get started on a high quality pair of binos since they are really important to extend your hunting time. We try to shoot older deer and I don't know how to do that without good binos.
Not to disparage your informal analysis, but without using some dependable form of resolution testing target your results are mostly subjective. I would also suggest that shooters are frequently fooled by failing to make sure that a scope is properly focused (yes, scopes do need to be focused for the vision of the individual who is using the instrument). Passing around an instrument to three different eyes will almost certainly result in unwarranted variations in how each individual percieves the sight picture. To verify this, just try using the scope first with your usual scope eye, then with the other. If you're like most of us who have slightly different vision in each eye you'll find a huge difference in your perception of the sight picture.
Posts: 13266 | Location: Henly, TX, USA | Registered: 04 April 2001
Stonecreek: Our analysis was not an analysis but three hunters sitting at a picnic table at twilight and our opinions. We are smart enough to realize individual focus is needed. All I know is when we looked through the scopes the Zeiss Victory was everyone's favorite. I don't know many that do much more than this when buying a new scope. I don't know why it is important to view the scope through my non viewing eye since I'm right handed. I don't shoot left handed. All I'm suggesting is to consider the Zeiss Victory.
Posts: 3073 | Location: Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: 11 November 2004
I do not have a problem hunting past legal light with a 6 X 42 Leupold. I fact I can see deer with some detail at 100 yards I cannot see with my naked eyes. How much do you require, My I ask what is your hunting situation? When we shoot hogs at night we use a spotlight so you could use a old 4X weaver. BTW; I love the Euro stuff. All my binocs are Euros however it is different than a rifle scope as I peer through them 100X as much.
Posts: 3256 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 January 2009
A scopes which can resolve and render fine detail under adverse lighting conditions is what you need. A $40 3-12x56 department store brand may look fairly “bright” to one’s eyes, but when it comes to resolving detail in poor light, it will fail miserably to a scope with a smaller objective and superior optics/coatings.
There’s rarely a need for an objective larger than 42-44mm, and a good 36 to 40mm will suffice quite nicely. You don't have to spend the $$ for a Swaro, either. Pick up a Nikon Monarch or Zeiss Conquest and you'll see the light, so to speak.
You can even get demo units from Doug at www.cameralandny.com for a substantial savings.
Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri
Posts: 9443 | Location: Shiner TX USA | Registered: 19 March 2002
I have a Zeiss Diavari Z 3-12 x56 and don't think you will find anything that gathers more light but it's rather heavy. I have one on my 257 Robts and like it very much. Rather expensive though.
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Posts: 2786 | Location: Green Valley,Az | Registered: 04 January 2005
