Hi Guys:

I searched the forum but didn't find what I am looking for. So naturally I am asking the more advanced people here about Bullet drop compensation reticles.

I went out to my favorite scope websites, Leupold, Nikon and Burris. I want a BDC scope that is set up for the caliber I am shooting. In this case it will be a Weatherby 300 Mag, and a second one for a 338 RUM.

First I went to Leupold, they have the Boone and crocket reticle and the tactial mill dots. But from what I can find out are not set up for different caliber velocities. How the hell do they work? Website sucks as far as finding out info on the reticles.

Second I went out to the Nikon Scope website. They have a bullet drop compensator, but absolutely no pictures of the rectile, or how it works? they are even worse than Leupold as far as info.

Third, Burris gives a full explanation on how it works, and has about 10 different reticles, for 10 differnt calibers all the way up to 300 RUM. The way it looks they have Balistic Plex and Tactial Mill dots. The Balck Diamond looks good with a Balastic Plex set up for say the 300 RUM, but how do you order the selected reticle? Do you have to call the distributor first? Or do you order the reticle direct from Burris?

Any help with any three of these scopes with BDC would greatlty be appreciated.

Thanks Jim P.

Hey PAH

I have 3 scopes with bullet drop compensation.

The 4x16x50x30mm Burris Ballistic Mil Dot is on my 22-250 which it is made for. The mil dots are set up so that if you zero the 55 gr Sierra Boattail bullet at 3680 fps at 100 yards the dots are dead on for 200, 300, 400 and 500 yards. The best way to think about it is where do the dots land on a 100 yard target. IOW, if you put the crosshairs on the center dot, the first dot down will be .8" down, the second dot down will be 2.4" down, the third dot at 4.6" and the next dot at 7.2".

This would correspond to the following trajectory:

crosshairs - 100 yards (zero)
1st dot - 200 yards - 1.6" drop (2 times .8")
2nd dot - 300 yards - 7.3" drop (3 times 2.4")
3rd dot - 400 yards - 18.3" drop (4 times 4.6")
4th dot - 500 yards - 36" drop (5 times 7.2")

Now you can play with your bullet and velocity and a ballistics program and see if it works for you.

I have a 3.5x10x50x1" Kahles AH on a 30-06. The TDS reticle has lines below the crosshairs with each line a little longer than the one above it. The lines subtend the following measurements on a target at 100 yards: crosshairs, 1st line down 2", 2nd line 4.8", 3rd line 7.5" and the 4th line at 10.5". I don't think the TDS would work well with the 300 WTBY, it shoots too flat. The TDS is more applicable to the 270 or 30-06 type trajectory.

The third scope I have is a 4x12x52x1" Kahles Multi Zero with which you can set your own zero points. It is by far the best scope I have and it is fabulous. It will work with any gun and any trajectory, you choose and set the marks yourself.

You might want to look at a Zeiss with the Rapid Z reticle. I have a 6.5 coming with a 26" barrel and I am seriously looking at the 4.5x14x44x1" Conquest with the Rapid Z 800.

I have also worked with a friend's Burris Ballistic Plex 3x12x44x1" and can not recommend it (has too much parallax with no adjustment). I do know that the Ballistic Plex subtends the following on a 100 yard target: crosshairs, 1st dot down 1.5", 2nd dot down 4.5", 3rd dot down 7.6" and the 4th dot down 11".

The Burris Signatures are not as good as the Burris Black Diamonds. The Burris's are not as good as the Zeiss Conquests or the Kahles Multi Zeroes. I would not own a Leupold.

What bullet and at what velocity are you planning on shooting?

I will make some general comments and then discuss the Nikon BDC specifically as I have one.

These reticles are designed to cover as many bases as possible for popular calibers and loads. They may or may not work for really rainbow or really flat calibers. Depending on what you want to do with a particular caliber and load, you may not need such a reticle for your shooting.

Both the cartridges you mention are very flat shooting rounds with which you can achieve a pretty long mean point blank range. Do you really need this for what you will be doing?

Also bear in mind that the further out you go in range the more precise you must be because bullet drop accelerates. Thus, at extended ranges, that you may or may not know exactly, these reticles may not give you the level of precision that you need. Many mil dot reticle users only rely on the mil dots for ranging and dial the comeups rather than try to hold them. So if you will be shooting at really long (by hunting standards) ranges, 350+ yards, you may be better off investing in a scope with target turrets and a mil dot reticle or quality rangefinder.

I have a Nikon Monarch 5.5-16.5 with the BDC reticle. It is a wire reticle not an etched reticle if that matters to you. I like the quality of the optics very much. Nikon offers a tremendous value when you consider the quality of the optic for the price. It's not European glass, but it's exceptional for the money.

But I don't think I will buy another BDC reticle. It is extremely busy, and I am not at all sure it’s very useful for big game hunting. The open circles actually provide quite a few aiming points, but I find it extremely distracting to look at and there’s a lot to keep track of.

For what it's worth, here's how the BDC is set up:

The exterior of each circle subtends 2" at 100 yards.

The interior of each circle subtends 1.5" at 100 yards.

The bottom of the first circle is 2" down at 100 yards

The bottom of the second circle is 4.5" down at 100 yards.

The bottom of the third circle is 7" down at 100 yards.

The bottom of the fourth circle is 11" down at 100 yards.

The top of the thick post is 15" down at 100 yards.

(Note that none of these measurements is in the BDC manual or on the Nikon website. They are only in the Nikon printing catalogue! Handy to say the least.)

This gets you pretty close for hunting purposes. A 100 grain .243 at 2900 fps sighted at 100 yards is 3.4" low at 200 and the bottom of the first circle is 4" low at 200 (2" low at 100 = 4" low at 200).

The same load is 12.6" low at 300 while the bottom of the second circle is 13.5" low. Again, for hunting purposes, plenty good.

At 400 yards, it's again quite close. The sample .243 load is down 28.7" while the bottom of the third circle is 28".

The problem comes when the game animal is not standing at a distance marked by one of the aiming points. For example, if the animal is at 250 yards, the sample bullet will drop 7.2" but there’s not a corresponding aiming point, so what do you do? Do you remember that at 250 yards the bottom of the first circle is 4.5" and the bottom of the second is 11.25" and try to hold in between? Or do you remember that the top of the second circle is 2.5" low at 100 yards and thusly 6.25" at 250 yards and use that?

With a standard (non-magnum) caliber zeroed at 100 yards, these can get a bit tricky to use especially when the trophy animal is about to skedaddle into the woods. In some senses, it’s an answer to a non-existent problem for big game hunting. (Varmint hunting would, I think, be different.) With my .30-06 168 grain load, I’m +/- 2.2" out to 250 yards. With +/- 3", I’m good to 283 yards.

Nikon does publish a manual for the BDC reticle, but it leaves a lot to be desired for clarity and thoroughness.

Nikon BDC reticle manual

Also, I don’t think Burris has different reticles. I believe they simply illustrate the different calibrations useable for the reticle. If you aren't shooting one of calibers and bullet weights illustrated, the reticle won't work for you. As I said above, this is a one size fits most.

Explanation of Burris reticle

Burris reticle calibers and bullet weights

And I concur with Woods. Skip Leupold.

Regards,

LWD

Hi Woods:

Wow you are a world of information, THANK YOU very much. I learned more from your post than I did with 2 hours worth of searching on the internet.

What is the price difference between the kahles Multi zero and say the Zeiss Rapid Z 800..?

My caliber that I will be shooting is a 338 RUM, I believbe the balistics are around 3000 FPS with a 250 grain bullet, have to double check that. My buddy's Weatherby 300 mag is 3150 FPS with a 180 grain bullet, Federal Factory fodder. He is looking also.

I have many Leupolds VXIII, one Burris, amd three Nikon scopes. I always wanted to try Zeiss.

I like the idea how the Zeiss will set up the exact ballsitics of an indiviual round by adjusting the magnification on the scope. I also like the adjustment on the second plane.

I have some more research to do on the Zeiss and Kahles. Where do you find you get the best prices on them?

Regards... Jim P.

Hi LWD...

Another great post, thank you very much, very informative. I also read a few articles about the Nikon BDC being to busy with the circles.

I also think that Nikon has great glass for the money, very sharp and clear images.

I have hunted many years with Leupies so I really can't complain.

I have taken over 14 head of African game with my Leupold 3X10 VXIII and 300 RUM and I am in the midst of having a custom 338 RUM built for me. This will be primarily for a brown bear hunt in the future, but I am taking it to New Zealand next year for Red Stag.

I was always interested in the BDC concept and figured I would like to try one.

I probably really don't need it, but I would like to have it if the realy long shot presents itself.

Regards... Jim P.

PAHunter-you're welcome. I have learned much from others on this forum on topics I knew little about, so I'm glad to share.

I shouldn't be too hard Leupolds. They are hell for stout with great warranty service and a great eyebox. I just think the glass in many others is much better, and their marketing hype gets a little intense at times......

If you select one of these reticles, IMHO the Burris is the one to get. It's the least busy and visually distracting of the bunch.

You might also think about going with a basic mil dot reticle. Once you learn how they work, it's simply a matter of applying them to the trajectory of your rifle. There's no need to ponder if it will work with one load and not another. Just learn how they work and know the trajectory of your load. (and so I don't get flamed, always shoot at distance to confirm what the ballistics program tells you.)

For Zeiss, try theopticzone.com or cameralandny.com Both these places have great prices. I have dealt with theopticzone, and they are great to deal with. I haven't dealt with cameralandny, but they have a great reputation on this forum and Doug from there posts often.

Once you've tried the European glass, not much else measures up. Be careful, you will never look at Nikon or Leupold the same again. Even the U.S. assembled Zeiss Conquest is a big leap past Nikon or Leupold.

LWD

Hey PAH

I ran some numbers and this is the way I see it. With your 338RUM you have the possibility of using the TDS, Burris Ballistic Plex or the Burris Ballistic Mil Dot reticles. The 250 gr bullet with the TDS or the Ballistic Plex and the 210 gr bullet with the Ballistic Mil Dot. For example:

250 gr Nosler Partition @ 3000 fps 200 yard zero:
+1.4, 0, -6.4, -18.7, -37.9, -64.5
TDS reticle zeroed at 200 yards
+1.4, 0, -6, -19.2, -37.5, -63 (now you are not gonna get much closer than that)
The Ballistic Plex zeroed at 200 yards
+1.4, 0, -4.5, -18, -38, -66 (not as close as the TDS)


Barnes Triple Shock 210 gr @ 3250 fps zeroed at 150 yards
+.4, -1.4, -7.8, -19.3, -37.3, -62.5
Ballistic Mil Dot zeroed at 150 yards
+1.4, 0, -6, -19.2, -37.5, -63 (not too bad especially at the longer ranges)

For the 300 Weatherby the choices are far fewer, the only one close is the Burris Ballistic Mil Dot:

200 gr Accubond (fantastic bullet) @ 3000 fps zeroed at 175 yards:
+.9, -.9, -7.5, -19.3, -37.3 -62
The Ballistic Mil Dot reticle zeroed at 200 yds
0, -6, -19.2, -37.5, -63

quote:

What is the price difference between the kahles Multi zero and say the Zeiss Rapid Z 800..?

The Zeiss with the Rapid Z is pretty new and is only listed on SWFA right now for $775.00. I would send Jon a e-mail at The Optic Zone to see if he has them and what price they would be. The Kahles Multi Zero's are not as cheap. I got my 4x12x52 MZ for $800.00 on Gunbroker.com. I notice they have an older model Kahles 3.5x10x50 with the TDS reticle. That is a good scope, not as good as the new Multi Zero's though, but cheaper.

The Swarovski's also have the TDS reticles if you just happened to get a big bonus at work.

2 recommendations:
1. A ballistic reticle is not as good in a low power scope like a 3x9 or a 3.5x10 because it is useful at long distances and the low power is not.
2. If you get any scope over 10 power make sure you have an adjustment for parallax, you will need it. Side focus'es are fantastic.

Hi Woods:

Again thank you very much for the informative post. I rechecked the ballsistics of the 338 RUM it is more like 2860 FPS at the muzzle with a 250 grain bullet.

I think I will give the Burris Black Diamond a look see with the Ballsitic Plex reticle. I also am going to check out the Zeiss Conquest rapid Z, the trick is to find a dealer that will let me take a look at one in the flesh first.

Cabelas should have them, but the guys behind the counter are not very helpfull sometimes.

The price for the Kahles Multi zero at almost $1200.00 bucks is a bit high, but the Zeiss is not out of the question.

Thanks again for all your help.

PAH --
If you reload, you need to figure out what is your best load at 100, 200, 300 yards etc. If you don't reload, just hang on. Go and buy a chronometer, which will tell you the velocity of your round.
Then, take the speed information from your best round and the ballistic coefficient and call leupold. they will grind a ballistic cam for whatever scope (BDC) you want to buy off of ebay or whatever place. Leupold was charging $90.00 for this service last I checked. Good luck.

As has been mentioned above there are a lot of different methods to zero ballistic reticles, but here is the easiest, IMO.

Determine the point blank range of your load, and zero the gun AT WHATEVER THE RANGE THE BALLISTICS PROGRAM TELLS YOU YOU THE X_HAIR SHOULD BE ZEROED(don't go off a ballistics program only, as small variations at the zero range will be magnified at extended range, and that x-hair zero is critical). Set up tgts. at the longer ranges in even 100 yd. intervals. Now with the x-hair centered on each tgts. bullseye shoot a gp. at each range. Go measure the drop from x-hair zero, and then divide the bullet drop by the range in hundreds of yards--ex. if the bullet drop at 500 yds. is 50" then divide 50 by 5, and u get 10 inch per hundred yds. Do the same for each range. Now go back to the 100 yd. tgt. and put a black dot at each measurement (10", etc.). Now look thru your scope at the 100 yd. tgt., and center the x-hair on the bullseye. Look where the stadia lines/dots line up on the lower dots, and adjust the magnification of the scope until u get the best reticle to bullet drop fit. Now mark the scope for the magnification that lines up with the index mark, and u will have a close system for long-range zeroing in 100 yd. increments.

I like to use the most exact system of reference for long-range zeroing (both vertical and horizontal) + rangefinding with ballistic/rangefinding reticles.. For this reason i have this online article if u wish to use it--

www.ottllc.com/specialtypistols/sp20.pdf

Honestly, when it really comes down to it IMO, the best ballistic/rangefinding reticle ever made for big game is the simple plex reticle in an avg. magnification range (2-7,3-9). Once u learn to apply a system with the plex post tips and more importantly learn to calculate and apply the interpolative system for the "in-between stadia" (in this case between x-hair and plex post tip) ranges u will have a pretty accurate system for shooting big game at long-range. U probably already have a plex-reticled scope in your battery that'll make for an excellent longer-range system of reference for both vertical (elevation) , and horizontal (windage), once u learn to apply it "tactically."

Has anyone got any experience with adjustable turrets and long range shooting? Like on this Nikon?

It would be easy to calculate clicks for different ranges but with an exposed turret like that, how do you keep it from getting knocked off your 100 yard zero, maybe losing your place or being a full rotation around and not realizing it? Is there a trick to that?

I have a Nikon Buckmaster on my .243. I put the target knobs on it when I got it, and in more than a year I haven't had a problem with this. But I have used the gun only on the range. However, the there's nothing really on the knob to catch and they are stiff enough not to turn without some force applied to them.

As far as losing the zero, many knobs can be reset to zero once you have the rifle dialed in. With some scopes this is just the knob being moved to read zero on your zero. Some higher end scope can be set so that the knob won't go below that point.

Keeping track of where you are rotationally is the bigger issue. As you know, a couple of revolutions of the knob makes a big difference. The turrets will usually be marked but can you read them accurately in low light under stress without moving your position off the rifle??? Schmidt and Bender actually makes a line of scopes that give you the full elevation range in two revolutions. But these are, as you can imagine, pricey. $2k+

LWD

I use exposed turrets in the field all the time, and have never had one turn on me yet. I have lost the turret housing before on a Burris scope, but there's only 2 turret set screws for the std. elevation turret. After i got a new one, i drilled one more in the turret housing on all my Burris scopes, to have a better hold on the spindle. In actuality that may have been my fault that i lost it, as the set screws should tighten into the groove on the spindle. Something i wasn't really doing right once zeroed.

have you looked at http://www.shepherdscopes.com/ ihave a couple of thier scopes and i am impressed with them real clear with a dual focal plane like the european style click on thier scope finder and they show the 300 weatherby but not the 300 rum just a thought robert

Another way to cope with this issue of "reticle hold-over" is to calculate the distance for each stadia line, using your specific load.

This of course needs a lot of calculations, and as usual, it is easily done by using the appropiate computer software. So far, reticles styles can be selected from 31 designs.

Take a look at this example :



here goes the data used by the foregoing image.



And if you use a Mil-Dot based scope, the program will compute a ready-to-print field chart, again, specific for your your defined load.

Nice system Gustavo. I'm using Exbal nowadays, but i still have to calculate interpolative zeroing for horizontal and vertical, so it still takes some time, especially for ballistic reticles that don't use a repeating interval for stadia subtensions, so i'm subtracting and dividing a lot--both horizontal and vertical.

Steve,

Just for the sake of illustrating the point you mentioned on stadia's unregular intervals two more images based on the same data as the previous one. Under this system no need to compute or interpolate nothing.

As can be appreciated on the image´s detail, each reticle is indicated along the subtension units employed.

Nice system . Will it do reticle windage reference also??

Gustavo:

That is one hell of a ballistics program. WOW

RRH:

I just checked out the Shepherd scope web site. I have to admit, it looks really interesting. Especally with them having the second palne adjustments.

I would love to see one in the flesh, I have to find a local dealer to check them out.

Thanks for the info.

Regards... Jim P.

quote:

Originally posted by sscoyote:
Nice system . Will it do reticle windage reference also??

Steve,

Right now there is no provision for windage for the "Reticle Hold" field chart, but if the user's demand for that feature is of consideration a new redesign will be in order.

The reason is basically how to cope with an uncluttered screen. In another words, how to make a nice, understandable readout.

Please bear in mind that all the Field Charts are ready to be printed out as you see them on-screen. Or exported to Excel for further customization or previewed in your internet browser ( automatically ) from where you can send it by email to share with others.

The complete set of Field Charts are automatically created ( from your specific data ) including a Wind Chart with a ready-to-print format.

PA Hunter,

Thanks for the nice comment!

Example of a Wind Chart. Please note that output units ( on the right ) are user selectable.

The latest update to the Loadbase 2 program contains a DBA reticle for the Docter Scope.
I have a pdf from Docter with the technical details for the reticle (For some reason omitted from the instruction booklet) and if anyone wants a copy, I'd be happy to e-mail it. Just PM me if you need one.