Gentlemen, I had to pass two golden opportunities at dusk last week. Which scopes in the 6x area are the very brightest in low light conditions? Thanks.

Either a Swarovski or a S&B 6x42 would fit the bill you describe.

Fla3006:

Get a 1.5x5x20mm Leupie, Stonecreek says it works great in low light. (In my best Foghorn Leghorn imitation voice....."That's a joke, son.")

Seriously, a) was the problem not being able to decide to shoot, ie. not being able to see enough points, spread, etc, b) not being able to clearly pick out the deer, or c) not being able to get the aiming point on the deer.

First of all, I suffer from similar situations from time to time since I hunt nearly everyday AM and PM. If the problem was a) you need some GOOD binos with big lenses. Depending on what you can hold, 10x50s range is a good compromise size. I often use 15x58 Minox's (new to me this season) which work well up past legal even on really dark days. However, there are conditions, such as having to glass a treeline in the West with a setting or set sun glow which just take out every bino and all the scopes I've tried.

If the problem was b) and barring other considerations, I'd consider the 6x42 Nikons, (I haven't used them but the Monarch UCC line is some of the brightest for light transmission easily beating Leupies. I haven't tried any of the Euro scopes in a fixed 6x. But you certainly might consider an 8x56 of the various brands. IOR is good and relatively cheap.

Finally, if it was c) then you might consider the 6x42 Leupies with heavy crosshairs or get a German 4A installed in them. Nikon's 6x doesn't have good crosshairs for really dim light work. I'd recommend the 4A or some similar variation in most scopes if it is available and you're going to face dim light hunting. Most of the time, if it is dim, then losing the reticle is the cause of not being able to take the shot.

Sorry there isn't any real revelation here, but I'm working on the same problems all the time.

Gatogordo gave you sound advice.

And I wholeheartedly second his recommendation for a Nikon Monarch 6x. It features superb optics and a price tag that is extremely reasonable (try Jon at www.theopticzone.com for best prices on Nikons)

The Monarch 6x resolves enough detail in low light situations to allow shots that would otherwise be impossible with lesser optics.

BTW, I killed a 225 plus sow pig late the other evening, doing exactly what I said. She came out just past legal deer hunting time. She was black, against a dark treeline, with the faintest glare from the setting sun just above the trees. I flat couldn't make her out with the scope in that spot. Put the rifle down and with my Zeiss 10x40s I could barely see movement as she was feeding. This went on for at least 10 minutes, while getting darker and darker. I was considering getting down out of the stand and seeing if I could sneak up on her, when she decided to come further out into the food plot, by the light of the moon and with the contrast of some lighter colored taller grass behind her, I could make her out thru the scope at about 120 yards. One shot and that was the end of her story. Savage .300 WSM. Made the mistake of having the muzzle brake open. Ouch.

Point of this story, the scope....Nikon Monarch 3.5x10x50mm set on 6x with nikoplex reticle. It really did all you could expect considering the conditions.

Thanks fellas, great advice. The specific situation in both cases was 6:05PM south-central Texas time, almost too dark to see, could not make out antlers well but appeared big and wide but could not tell by how much. I use older Nikon 7x35 binocs from the 1970s (excellent, no problem with them) and my scope is a 60s era Bushnell ScopeChief 6x, mounted on a vintage Brno ZG-47. The crosshairs are not the best I know but this is a very bright scope, but I'm sure not up to today's standards. I will probably replace it with a Meopta 6x42 Artemis in my safe or look for a Leupold 6x42 with heavy CHs.

go look for a big objective scope for bright, but i find that one with a small red dot that can be turned on is most usefull in the dark. Micro dot is the brand i usually go to for these.

Leupold M8 6x42 !!! I can see through mine before it's even light out.

Ditto the Leupold M8 6x42. Granted it's the only 6X I have owned, but I can verify that it's very bright. Lou

I had a Swarovski 6x42mm and compared it directly to a Meopta 7x50 Artemis I also owned.

I did this at dusk and in what I would term "difficult" light conditions...In every test, the Swarovski performed better...I like meopta scopes very much and own a couple...but I find my Swarovski and S&B scopes are brighter.

Another alternative which is about the same price as Meopta is a Hungerian assembled S&B..Same optics/components as their German models but quite a price difference, at least here in the UK...This range has been out for several years now, and there have been no issues with build quality as compared to the German models...

You might also want to consider a variable intensity illuminated reticule...Meoptas are pretty good from what I hear..

Regards,

Pete

I have a Kahles 1.5 X 6 X 42. It is extremely bright, and more versatile than a fixed power scope.

Schmidt & Bender and ZEISS

I've got quite a few 6x42's.

The Leupold 6x42 w/Heavy X-Hair is a good scope but IMO when compared to the 6x42 Kalhles', Zeiss & S&B's in my collection offers the poorest low light resolution of the group.

Not that it's a bad scope; the others are simply better in low light. The bloom, flare or glare (whatever it's called in optical terms) when the Leupold scope is used in the direction of a setting sun is not up to the standard of the others. Also the X-Hair turns an odd dark purple color.

The Schmidt & Bender (a much older 1980's steel tubed model) is by far the clearest of the entire batch. Having said that I'd also like to qualify this with; I returned it to the factory 2-3 years ago to have the old German #1 post & crosshair recticle replaced with a #4 recticle. Whether it got some good factory tuning in conjunction with this I don't know but it's REALLY good.

Forrest, have you looked through the S&B 1.5 - 6 X 42 with the new post reticle in which just the tip of the post is illuminated?

Wink, no I haven't seen this. Sounds interesting. Are the German scopes mentioned all 30mm tubes? Do 30mm tubes help appreciably or is it more a matter of objective size/lense distance ratios, etc?

It's called the N° 2 Flashdot and I think it's the cat's meow. Check the link:

http://www.schmidtbender.com/reticlesflashdot.htm

As for 30mm scope tubes, other than being the tradition in Europe and allowing for a little wider reticle adjustment range, I don't know what the optical advantages/disadvantages potential might be.

I should also have mentioned that S&B now has what some might think the ultimate DG scope, especially with the flashdot reticle. Check out this 1.1 - 4 X 24mm:

http://www.schmidtbender.com/scopeofthemonth.shtml

I was wrong I think about the flashdot reticles being available on the 1.5 - 6 X42, it takes the illuminated L3 and L9 reticles which are also good. Gentlemen, start drooling.

From what I have seen from scopes here is my take on it for low light aiming.

First of all at my age I can't use an exit pupil over 5 any longer. Most 'night' scopes have a 7 of course ie. the 56/8 = 7. Thus a 6X with a objective over 29 would be good.

Second of all when I increase the magnification I concentrate the light and can see detail better. Thus a 9X 44mm would be better for me than a 6X 44mm.

Third that the crosshairs in the Conquest style scopes are much easier to see than in the USA type scopes no matter what the light. However an illuminated reticule would be even better.

In tests using my 3-9 Conquest the reticule lasted about as long as I could make stuff out anyway.

Conclusion. Get a 3.5-10 mm Conquest from Cameraland. If you already have a 9X or higher variable with the same focal plane as the Zeiss scopes then use that.

Forrest,

In Europe most of the major riflescope manufacturers have used the following standard for years:

1. Fixed power scopes (most 4x32's, 6x42's & 8x56's) are made with a 26mm tube diameter. For those who attempt to use 1" US rings; lots of cussing when the rings won't fit - for those ham-handed who somehow manage - serious dents in the tube.

2. The variables are made with 30mm tubes, the 1.5x6's, 2.5x10's and the 3/4x12's, etc.

3. Most everything else; that is specifically made for the US market has 1" (25.4mm) diameter tubes.

For all the other doubting Thomas's lurking; yes, I know there are some oddball sizes out there too, but the above is pretty much the way the Tuetons make 'em.

Savage99 wrote:

quote:

Second of all when I increase the magnification I concentrate the light and can see detail better

It is physically impossible to "concentrate the light." But increasing the magnification can allow you to see more detail and thus give the appearance of being brighter.

quote:

Originally posted by bowhuntrrl:
Leupold M8 6x42 !!! I can see through mine before it's even light out.

1+

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Savage99 wrote:

quote:

Second of all when I increase the magnification I concentrate the light and can see detail better

This is not possible under low-light circumstances. The more you increase magnification within a given scope, the lower the light transmission (and apparent brightness)will be. It is physically impossible to "concentrate the light."

In good light, of course, all of that is basically irrelevant, but the basis of this discussion was low-light performance.

Lastly, the difference in apparent brightness in a good scope such as a 1.5-6x42 Nikon Monarch Gold at 1.5x and then 6x (under low light) may be minimal, but there's no doubt that a difference does exist.

Then help me understand why when I was hunting this evening after sunset that I could see detail much better at 9X than at 6X or lower powers? There was no doubt about it. I could see whatever it was much better at the higher powers.

The scope was a 3-9 Conquest.

Savage 99-

It's simple. Your scope has the ability to transmit sufficient light at 9x to allow the resolving of detail -- detail that's still illuminated amply for you to be able to see.

Your scope does indeed transmit more light at 6x than at 9x. That's simple science. But as you have found, a good scope still allows one to view targets (and to see detail) at higher magnifications long after others will fail. But in now way will your scope be "brighter" at 9x than it is at a lower setting. What you have experienced is simply using more magnification to increase the size of the target and thus see it better.

I really don't follow you but I will try to understand when this comes up again.

The bottom line for me is that the 3-9 Conquest at 8 or 9X sees better in low light than it does at 6X. Of course the field is less but actually seeing something was better at the higher power. This is the bottom line.

Those who have painted themselves in a corner that somehow a fixed 6X scope is better for anything in particular are just doing it the old way.

Savage99:

I'm not sure anyone has painted themselves in a corner for using 6x. That was fla3006's question, to which various of us replied, not which would be best scope for low light period. Most people find that 3x9x40 variables "see" best at 7 or 8x (about your supposed personal maximum usable light exit pupil of 5mm). However at 6x, a fixed power scope, assuming the same lense coatings, will transmit a tad more ligth than a variable at the same magnification. Why? Simple, there is one less lense (at least) in most fixed power scopes. Most lenses pass light through somewhere on the order of 95 to 98% of available light. The various claims that scopes "transmit" light in the high 90% range is just pure BS. Simple math.

The much cussed and discussed "twilight factor" is, in fact, pretty accurate, if you compare apples and apples. Most people can get a better image quality at less than their maximum eye pupil diameter with higher magnification. That's why you see a better quality dim light image in your scope at 9x not at 6x.

Best period for low light, excluding night vision scopes, probably a Zeiss or similar brand 8x56, but they are kind of clunky and quite expensive. Back to the old question, is a few minutes of shooting time worth $500 or more in additional scope costs? That's up to the shooter, his personal shooting needs, and his wallet to answer. To repeat, for the money, the Nikon 6x42 is awfully hard to beat.

PS: While not directly related to the topic, I found this scope test enlightening (pun intended).

scope comparison

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
From what I have seen from scopes here is my take on it for low light aiming.

First of all at my age I can't use an exit pupil over 5 any longer. Most 'night' scopes have a 7 of course ie. the 56/8 = 7. Thus a 6X with a objective over 29 would be good.

Second of all when I increase the magnification I concentrate the light and can see detail better. Thus a 9X 44mm would be better for me than a 6X 44mm.

Third that the crosshairs in the Conquest style scopes are much easier to see than in the USA type scopes no matter what the light. However an illuminated reticule would be even better.

In tests using my 3-9 Conquest the reticule lasted about as long as I could make stuff out anyway.

Conclusion. Get a 3.5-10 mm Conquest from Cameraland. If you already have a 9X or higher variable with the same focal plane as the Zeiss scopes then use that.

Most 4x32 and 6x42 made in Europe today have 25.4mm tube diameter.
Some 8x56 have 25.4mm and others 30mm.

26mm tubes mostly belongs to the past.

Gatogordo,

The the fixed 6X is a compromise as compared to a variable. The fixed is lacking in field of view, definition and low light performance.

I started deer and varmint hunting with a 6X scope. I still have it and the Lyman Wolvorine is now on a pre 64 M70 safe queen. I can recall, as a kid, getting in the middle of a deer drive. They did not know I was there and the deer came running right past me. I never even got a deer in the scope!

Later I shot my first deer with that scope. Later it got almost a thousand chucks for me.

Finally I began to use variables much later than most as I had and still have many fixed old Lymans that are still very good.

That test last evening in real game country proved to me beyond a doubt that a variable set on a higher power has superior definition to the same scope at a lower power.

You'll have to look a bit to find one, but I have a Burris Signature 6x scope that is fantastic. They don't make them anymore. They are exceptionally bright and sharp. Love it. I'm looking for another one. Burris sold them with the angle that the internal lenses were 40% larger than comparable lenses in a 1 inch tube, resulting in more light. It may be true or not, but my Signature 6x is very bright at low light, and the plex style reticle is relatively heavy-and easy to see.

A Nikon Monarch, or Leupold 6x would be a good choice too.

If you want bright, and don't move much, then you want an 8 x56. IOR Valdada makes a nice scope in 4x, and 6x fixed (and I think they used to make one in 8x56). The 4a or 7a reticles offered on the IOR's are very easy to see in low light. I have a fixed 4x IOR Valdada hunting scope with the 7a reticle. Very happy with it on my CZ 550 9.3x62.
http://www.valdada.com/vn/ior/02a
http://www.impactguns.com/store/ior_hunting.html
http://www.cactustactical.com/blog/2006/11/ior-valdada-...al-rifle-scopes.html

Or, get a good quality 3-9 x 50mm scope, and set it at 6 or 7x for max pupil dialation (50mm/7mm= 7, so this would be the optimum magnification of 7x for a 50mm scope). It would be a tough to beat a Nikon Monarch, Leupold Vx11 or 111 (preferred), Weaver Grand slam (~ 3-10x) or B&L 4200 series-or higher (ie: Meopta, Kahles, Swarovski, S&B).

Or, just start using your grunt call 30 minutes earlier in the PM or later in the AM. :-)

PM me if you are interested in a Swarovski 6x36, great optics, like new in box, for about half what you can get a 6x42 Swarovski.

I bought an 8x56 Zeiss off this forums classifieds and am well pleased with it's low light capabilities. It is on a heavy rifle that is used in an elevated blind only. Too heavy for an old man to carry.
Butch