I had heard somebody else mention it in another forum, that no matter how good the glass was, heavy mirage can keep you from seeing bullet holes in targets @ extended ranges. What do you guys think about that?

absolutely

High magnification and warm air are not your friends when trying to see anything, let alone bullet holes.

Mirage can also makes objects appear where they really aren’t. Easy way to visualize this is to take a glass of water and stick a spoon in it. See how when viewed from the side the portion of the spoon in the water appears to be in a different place than it really is? Same basic optical illusion caused by mirage.

So in a nutshell, it matters not how kickass your glass is, if its hot and the mirage is thick, you have to do the walk(drive) to get some face to face with your target sometimes. That is piece of mind cause I am torn between trying to get the best bang for the buck, or getting a Zeiss. Man, I sure do love to drop mad cash on toys, but you have to draw the line SOMEWHERE, right?

Mirage absolutely can keep you from seeing small bullet holes in distant targets.
Learning to read Mirage properly will help you to keep those small bullet holes closer together.
Buying good optics is a good way to avoid future headaches -literally. Cheap optics will give you one.
Find a good deal on the Zeiss you really want and you won't waste money spending it on something that doesn't meet with your desires and expectations. You only have to buy the best once.................DJ

I am not at all a fan of variable scopes, but this is one area where the variable magnification can be quite handy and serve a truly usable purpose.

Also, it doesn’t have to be 100 degrees outside to have mirage present.

This is somewhat controversial, but I’ll toss it out for your consideration... there are those out there that claim that larger objective lenses can and do increase the illusions caused by mirage. There is actually an optical theory behind that claim, but I can’t say that I have ever really tested it or experienced it personally.

quote:

Originally posted by gixxer:
So in a nutshell, it matters not how kickass your glass is, if its hot and the mirage is thick, you have to do the walk(drive) to get some face to face with your target sometimes.

This follows under huh?!? Mirage is rarely a problem for the rifle scope unless you had fired a bunch of rounds or it is extremely hot (beyond Africa hot, as low temp mirages won't be present at hunting distances). For a hunting rifle, chances are your barrel will be cool when you're looking through the scope. At a target shoot, you can easily avoid barrel mirage by placing a paper target over the barrel. if the paper catches on fire, you've fired to many.

The real need for good optics occurs at low light situations. Think fog, rain, snow, last light, etc. Otherwise, there isn't much difference than a Swarovski and a Tasco. I am not sure I would spend the money on a Zeiss, I would feel more comfortable with a Kahles for the same money or a leupold LPS for less. Of worse yet, spend an extra $200 for a Swarovski and see if the wife lets you back in the house.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
This follows under huh?!? Mirage is rarely a problem for the rifle scope unless you had fired a bunch of rounds or it is extremely hot (beyond Africa hot, as low temp mirages won't be present at hunting distances). For a hunting rifle, chances are your barrel will be cool when you're looking through the scope. At a target shoot, you can easily avoid barrel mirage by placing a paper target over the barrel. if the paper catches on fire, you've fired to many.

The real need for good optics occurs at low light situations. Think fog, rain, snow, last light, etc. Otherwise, there isn't much difference than a Swarovski and a Tasco. I am not sure I would spend the money on a Zeiss, I would feel more comfortable with a Kahles for the same money or a leupold LPS for less. Of worse yet, spend an extra $200 for a Swarovski and see if the wife lets you back in the house.

John

I agree with you on the effect or presence of mirage at normal hunting distances...but I disagree with your assumption about the temperature required to produce a mirage.

Mirage is nothing more, and nothing less, than light waves emanating from a distant object being affected (bent) by abnormal spatial variations in the density of the air between the object and the person viewing it. For us normal people just think: Hot air rises!

Mirage can occur at the north pole at zero degrees on a sunny day when the suns rays are reflected off the snow or ice heating the air and causing it to rise.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Mirage can occur at the north pole at zero degrees on a sunny day when the suns rays are reflected off the snow or ice heating the air and causing it to rise.

The Mirage is when the surface is significantly hotter than the air above it. So yes, sun on snow could cause a mirage, but not as likely to cause enough of a disturbance to pull a shot under 1000 yards. The absolute worse is looking over asphalt just as the sun is at high noon even then, a 500 yard shot is still pretty reasonable at game sized targets. Having spent some time shooting at weird temperatures over varing terain, the only places I've known that had mirage issues at any hunting distance would be desert. Cool mornings are particularly neat as contrails are produced by the bullet flying through the air.

BBH, we were talking about spotters, not riflescopes. Rick, I saw light mirage @ the range last week, and it was under 80deg. Hell, I was at work today and saw mirage. Albeit it was the aircraft flightline, that is to be expected...

quote:

Originally posted by gixxer:
BBH, we were talking about spotters, not riflescopes. Rick, I saw light mirage @ the range last week, and it was under 80deg. Hell, I was at work today and saw mirage. Albeit it was the aircraft flightline, that is to be expected...

I saw a mirage once at about 2:30 AM and it made me run a red light...that’s my story, and I’m sticking to it officer!!!

One of my spotting scopes is a Leupold 12-40x60mm with a mil dot reticle for range estimation, and I like being able to crank down the power if the mirage gets too bad at the upper end. At 40x it doesn’t take much heat rising from the ground to cause your target to start dancing around the cross hairs.

of course now I have to ask which Loopy as that reticle in it, and who else makes a spotter with a mil dot in it?

quote:

Originally posted by gixxer:
of course now I have to ask which Loopy as that reticle in it, and who else makes a spotter with a mil dot in it?

It’s the Tactical 12-40x60mm. It comes with a regular mil dot reticle and I had Premier install their really nice GenII mil-dot reticle in it.

Leupolds new line of Binoculars also has a tactical model with a mil-dot reticle, but only in 10x50’s which is not my favorite size in binoculars.

I’ll stick with my Steiner 8x30 Miliarty R’s with the mil scale reticle...not quite as nice a true mil dot, but still works fine and in a much handier package.

quote:

Originally posted by gixxer:
BBH, we were talking about spotters, not riflescopes. Rick, I saw light mirage @ the range last week, and it was under 80deg. Hell, I was at work today and saw mirage. Albeit it was the aircraft flightline, that is to be expected...

Aww heck, I can usually see bullet holes with my 10x scope... Sorry 'bout that...

Hey Rick,
is that MIL dot retical in you Luepold a decimal dot or a fractional dot?

I have decimal dots (army MIL) in two scopes. I thought it would be interesting to get a MIL dot retical in a spotting scope too, but it could be confusing to have two different dot types.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Marlin:
Hey Rick,
is that MIL dot retical in you Luepold a decimal dot or a fractional dot?

I have decimal dots (army MIL) in two scopes. I thought it would be interesting to get a MIL dot retical in a spotting scope too, but it could be confusing to have two different dot types.

I have the Premier Reticle Gen II mil dot reticle in the spotting scope, and have the same reticle in an M3 10x and a 3.5x10.
http://www.premierreticles.com/index.php?uid=5465&page=1793

My Unertl 10X has the USMC oval mil dots which are true ¼ mil (.86 moa) from edge to edge. Army mil dots (despite how they’re advertised) are NOT ¾ mil dots they are ¾ moa dots which comes out to .22 mils in size.

The Gen II mil dots are .2 mils in size and they have spaced hash marks between the dots. The system allows you to calculate in 0.1 mil increments.

easy Rick, put the coffee down and back a way from the caffine.

So your spotting scope has the decimal dots. Thank you.

I know the differance, and it irritated me too at first that the numb nuts that write the instruction manuals haven't got a clue about the product!
It also confused the shit out of me when I was trying to lear how to use it and the MOA and MIL confusion in the instructions was driving me nuts. I could not make the math work (cuz it doesn't!)

(Damn, that caffine does strang things to a body)

I put in the "(army MIL )" dot referance to differentiate between round dots and oval dots. I have the .22 dia. MIL dot scopes. Varified on a mylar plot at a measured 100 meters. (high tech barber pole).


WOW I think we the shit out of this one.

Sorry gixxer.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Marlin:
easy Rick, put the coffee down and back a way from the caffine.

So your spotting scope has the decimal dots. Thank you.

(Damn, that caffine does strang things to a body)

???? what did I say that gave the impression I was “fired-up†about anything/ You asked me a question and I just answered it.

In all the years I have been using mil-dot retilces, and in all the conversations I had over those years with Dick Thomas (who built the reticles for Unertl, Leupold, etc) I’ve just never heard anyone use those terms (decimal dots/fractional dots??) to describe the differences beyween Army and USMC patterns.

Na, probably not, just my own frustration with learning how to use MIL dots with poorly written instructions being personified onto your "(despite how they’re advertised)" comment.

Luckily I found some very well written instructions on the web. I also played with some software that teaches one how to do the math and then lets you take the shot on a simulation. I've practiced it enough that now I can do the math in my head.

As for decimal dots and fractional dots, I wasn't sure what else to call them. One set is geared for the user to estimate with decicals down to .1 of a MIL and the other is set up for the user to estimate down to 1/8 of MIL.
That's what happens when a non-military person learns how to use military equipment on thier own, they figure out how to make it work within their life's expirence, hence decimal and fractional MIL dots.
All I know is that now that I've become proficiant with it, the woodchucks are in a world of trouble this summmer.

Rusty,

No harm no foul!

The reason I said what I said was because so many companies jumped on the mil-dot band-wagon and never bothered to let their customers know that their reticles were not exactly as advertised. I’ve seen tons of ads for “¾ mil dot reticles†and they even include instructions based on the USMC ¼ mil dots along with their scopes. As you found out, they math just doesn’t work that way.

Hey, becoming proficient is all that counts. As you can now confirm once you become comfortable and proficient in using mil dots (whatever style they are) they are a great reticle system with lots of different uses.

Mirage is caused by the different densities of air due to differences in temperature. When the sun hit the ground it warms the air next to the surface and starts causing Mirage.
The reason that you might see Mirage better in a larger Obj scope is resolution. At the same magnification the scope with the better resolution will more clearly show the different air densities a.k.a. Mirage.
Mirage usually isn't an issue in magnifications 10x below unless it's real hot or you have really good optics. In a really good scope you'll see Mirage at 4x on a 70deg day..................DJ

Sorry but somewhat related is the effect of mirage when shooting skeet and trap targets. I've beeen in Albuquerque when it was 106f and watched skeet targets skip towards me loike stones being skipped on water. Most disconcerting and shooting trap was even worse. Mirage is not any shooters friend.

the effects of mirage are exactly why my load ladders are loaded for each rifle, and when a windless day comes that is overcast (very little or no mirage even at 32x) I duck out of work and go shoot.

Does anyone have the slightest clue what those last two posts mean?

it's simple,..you work your load ladders when mirage doesn't move the target around, and therefore no need to adjust for mirage. The group represents the potential of the rifle without mirage error. THEN, when you have to shoot under mirage, you know any loss of accuracy is due to mirage and shooter error.

NEVER run a load ladder under heavy mirage,..it is a waste of powder and bullets. I make sure to run mine either in the 200yd long chicken house, or when the sky is overcast with no wind.

so,...a long way of saying, yes mirage affects the ability to see abullet hole as the target "appears" to move. That makes focusing on holes hard or impossible. therefor,..I wait for calm, overcast days to run load ladders. That way I eliminate several variables.

Mirage HAS to be dealt with in the field or in a match,..but not for strict accuracy work. Patience pays in spades.

That’s all well and good...but “load ladder“ is not a term I am familiar with.

try "creighton audette" that is the ladder method I was referring to. Once I have a load,..I'll shoot under mirage,..but NEVER run my load tests under mirage. I prove them with no wind or mirage before I select my load. After that, mirage has to be dealt with in the field,....the load is proven. NOW,..it's up to us

I always called than common sense...not a ladder.

Never heard that term used before and also never heard of Mr. Audette...but I bet he never heard of me either!

Rick,..I heard of him a few years ago and began looking into his way of working ascending charges, then after a minor modification to his original method,..I think I have found a way that makes it fast and accurate for me. Ya know how it is once you get a "way" of doing things that works for you,..you just kinda keep it

quote:

Originally posted by JustC:
Rick,..I heard of him a few years ago and began looking into his way of working ascending charges, then after a minor modification to his original method,..I think I have found a way that makes it fast and accurate for me. Ya know how it is once you get a "way" of doing things that works for you,..you just kinda keep it

I wasn’t trying to bust your chops...you were just using a term that I was totally unfamiliar with.

no offense taken

I see a lot of guys havn't heard of him,..in fact I only became aware of him through a conversation on another board a few years ago. he coined the term "load ladder". (I think?)

Now all I have to do is figure out about the skeet targets skipping like stones on a lake and I’ll be a much smarter guy!