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A Contrast in Style — American vs. European Optics-Makers Among the major optics makers, the difference between American and European marketing styles was painfully obvious. Leupold and Burris had fast-talking, glad-handing salesmen, who, for the most part, knew very little about their product line and even less about optics engineering. By contrast, Zeiss and Schmidt & Bender staffed their booths with real optics engineers with Ph.Ds, many of whom were directly involved in the design of the products on display. At Zeiss we spent nearly an hour talking with Stephan Albrecht, the German engineer in charge of the new 20-75X Diascope spotting scope and the new Diavari Flourite riflescopes. During our conversations with Stephan he actually solicited our feedback, took careful notes and promised to explore some of our suggestions. We also were able to share our field test results directly with Eric Schumacher, President of Carl Zeiss Optical, USA. By contrast, Leupold’s decision makers and top-level engineers were nowhere to be found, and when we voiced our (now annual) plea that Leupold stop building scopes with canted reticles, we were greeted with nothing but blank stares. Leupold’s reps couldn’t comprehend the canted reticle problem, even after I pulled a scope (with 3° canted reticle) off their display rack and showed them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | ||
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Butch, Good posting. Lots of insight into how companies from each side of the pond view their customers; with BS from this side, and respect from Urp.. And, we wonder why folks buy European optics. | |||
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BUTCH so well said Daniel | |||
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There is a reason for this attitude at leupold. Posted in the optics forum - Snipers Paradise forum : " Back a few years ago, maybe 4 years Chris O'Donald (if memory serves me right) was head of the Military and Law Enforcement division. He asked me to review a Mark 4 6.5x20x50 with the TMR reticle. The review was for Leupold themselves. He and I talked before I sent the review in and I told him I knew they were using glass from China. This is like old soda paste glass. Even with great coatings it's only so good. I suggested if they were going to use glass from China to at least use camera grade glass. I explained how dissatisfied I was with the turret system as well. I suggested that they go back to the turrets used on their target scopes from back in the early 80's. These were great turrets on the old long tube target models. He explained to me that the Leupold family had no desire to lead the tactical scope world at that time. He said the Leupold Stevens families grand kids couldn't spend they money these folks have. He said they make all their money in the first seven months of hunting season. He said the folks in the division were the only ones that cared whether or not Leupold was number one. I certainly hope they have changed their minds and all this is true. I try hard to always buy US made products. However, if everything is made overseas and assembled here it ain't US made in my eyes. What burns my a$$ is the US could make better glass then anyone if they wanted to and if it could be affordable. I know I'm old and some say opinionated however, I feel I've earned that right....... I know I miss John Unertl. " Flea " http://snipersparadise.com/sni....php?showtopic=27749 It was not always this way. I remember calling and talking to Jack Slack and Myrlin Webb about the new 36 x scope in comparison to a Siebert boosted 24 X to 32 X. Great people who listened. Probably because they actually used this stuff. Stonewall | |||
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The USA does make the best optics in the world, and a lot of optical processing is still done in the USA. Just not for the sporting goods market, all high end stuff . I wish someone from the US would make all components here, but the glass from Asia is decent and very cheap. Polishing the lens is still dirty and labor intensive. All they need is skilled workers to set up the machines, and use good tooling and materials. The key as you already said is quality of materials the Chinese use. BigB | |||
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Big B is right. I work in the optics industry and china is killing us. The only thing keeping it alive is military work. | |||
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My wife says I'm mean to salesmen. They ask, "Can I help you?" I say, "I doubt it, and I have no time to waste and no patience for fools."  I am seldom detained for very long. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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The difference is reflected in the price. Making a limited number of extremely expensive scopes is not Leupold's market, and they choose not to play in that market. Let Swaro build scopes for Leuplod prices, then see what they deliver. I think you just get what you pay for, and not many of us can write a check for the high end stuff. To me, Leupold is high end. | |||
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The difference is reflected in the price. Making a limited number of extremely expensive scopes is not Leupold's market, and they choose not to play in that market. Let Swaro build scopes for Leuplod prices, then see what they deliver. I think you just get what you pay for, and not many of us can write a check for the high end stuff. To me, Leupold is high end.[/QUOTE] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Butch, I understand exactly what you are saying about the Leupolds. I have a Euro 30 with a canted reticle. Doing what you (all) were doing is what keeps WE Americans on track and up to par. (It sounds like jobs for Ph.Ds in optics are not that plentiful in Europe. Could that be why EVERYONE is trying to come to or do business in America? It is always about $$$$$$$) "The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc.... -----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years------------------- | |||
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I have always been left in utter amaizement when my fellow hunters try to compaire the same types of hunting equipment when one costs anywhere form 30% or more than the other. Scopes made by Schmidt & Bender, Swaro, Nightforce, US Optics, Zeiss, that cost any where form $1,000 to over $2500 EA are a class of scopes IMHO that are being marketed to a number of hunters near fractional of a percent in size. Unless I plan on hunting and shooting to ranges beyond 400yrds a scope costing under $500 will serve me well for several life times worth of hunting. And now that I have mentioned it, I desperately wish to build me a long range rig for taking animals at ranges of 800yrds and less. When I reach the point of buying I will most likely buy a T-3 or A-7 and top it with a distance adjustable scope whos cost does not exceed $1000 by that much if at all, I hope. But I simply can not immagine any justification on earth for investing $1500-2000+ dollars in a scope for a purely hunting application, when there are so many other great scopes out there now for much much less. If you add up the total days spent afeild hunting by my friends and my self you are way past 1200 or so and all three of us own and only use Leupold scopes. Granted they are all 100% the older discontinued VariX-II models, but none of us knock on wood, have ever had one fail us in any way shape or form. Im not trying to say leupold is the best as it is not. Nikon, Bushnell, Sightron and a few others all make excellent scopes. All I am saying is for scopes that cost my self and my friends $300 or less they have held up on 100% DIYS hunts to Alaska, NM,UT, AZ, WY and countless 100s of days spent deer hunting and served us with out cause for complaint. It is extreamly hard to convince me that a scope that costs 3-5X more will some how durring leagle shooting hours, magickly turn a other wise unmakable shot with one of my VariX-IIs into a makable shot if I only had a $1000 Zeiss, $1000-$2300 Swaro or some other scope that cost 3x or more than my VariX-II or a different scope in the same price range as my VariX-II would be today. I am sure there are hunters who can afford a scope in the $1000-$2600 price range, and thats great and it is your God given right to spend YOUR hard earned $$$ any whay you see fit. I just personaly have a set in stone rule about the cost of needs VS wants. For my financial state in life a scope costing well over $1000 to ME is a pure want I can not justify the expense of, as I simply do not make enough money to do so. On the other hand if I did, I must be honest and say I might be so inclined to spend the $$$ at least on one scope, but knowing me I would spend it on better binos and a great spotter as I strongly feel for hunting the mountains out west your much better served by buying a good quality scope like mine and if you can afford it, big bucks on binos and even more on a great spotter, because you have to spot them and then judge them worth while before you can shoot them, and that is where great and costly optics really pay off on their investment, MUCH, MUCH more so than IMHO a costly scope ever will. | |||
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I guess I would rather invest my money in good quality scope and only have to do it once.Swaro has fixed and updated my Bino`s and scopes at no cost to me several times.Even when it was my fault.Thats a good investment. | |||
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Europeans and others in my experience have a different philosopy. They demand more from their rifles than we do it seems. Their optics are optimized for medium range shots in difficult low light conditions. The like expensive high resolution optics for precise target definition and mirage mitigation. They therefore spend more on their rifles, but buy far fewer than we do for their personal collections. -------------------- EGO sum bastard ut does frendo | |||
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Europe is also the place where the concept of a $4000 BB gun (okay, air rifle) was nurtured. I own more firearms than the average hunt club in most of those countries does. I have a Leupold 6.5-20X that Premier Reticle boosted to 18-42X and converted to first focal plane reticle, with windage line and seven dots on the vertical cross hair. Works well enough to let me actually hit and kill Rockchucks well past half a mile. Like more than a dozen past 1000 yards. Yes! in front of witnesses. Rich | |||
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