From all you with good scopes and accurate rifles, I'd like to know a couple of things. I've noticed that with some scopes, the shots after a scope adjustment make a much larger group than the gun is capable of once some shots are taken with the scope left alone. It doesn't make the scope unusable but is irritating.

Also, in some scopes, the alleged 1/4 MOA clicks don't translate into 1/4 MOA change in impact point on paper. At times, changing windage will also change elevation and vice versa as well. It's possible to get the scope sighted in but there is a waste in ammunition in doing so.

1. Would you consider either of the above a scope malfunction?

2. What brands/models of scopes would you consider least likely to be beset with the above maladies?

1. It could be a number of things, but scope malfunction is very possible. It could be ammo, your rifle or shooting technique. Many scopes don't track well. This is not just my experience. I had a number of discussions with 1000 yard shooters and one who is the manager of a range who also shoots competitively. I ruffled some feathers here some time ago when I mentioned some scope brands that he told me weren't worth a darn. In fact, the one that I had on my rifle at the time was one that he told me was not worth a darn.

2. Nightforce has one of the best reputations for reliability and tracking. I have one and am very happy with it. When I buy another one it will be NF.

It's definitely not the ammo, rifle or shooting technique.

I have 3 Nightforce scopes and have no complaints with the tracking of any of them but the 3.5 to 15X requires several shots to settle down after a change in settings. It may be because it's relatively new; after a bit of use it may loosen up a bit and be better.

The particular scope with both of the mentioned problems is a Leupold VX-III 4.5-14X AO. After a change in settings, groups open up from less than 0.5 MOA to probably 2 MOA for several shots. That is far more error than I could possibly be responsible for even if I do say so myself.

Tracking is a leupold problem. It is the reason March is selling $2100 scopes to the BR crowd. I would not dare make an adjustment to a Leupold and depend on it for 5 shots or so. I'm not saying that Leupold is the only one with that problem. It just takes awhile for them to settle down.
Butch

The Leupold could be the problem. Have you tried one of your NF scopes on that rifle? That may prove that the Leupold is the problem or that it is something else. You seem to have the other issues covered.

My NF is a 3.5x15x56 and if I had any tracking issues I would contact NF. I had a long talk with them at the SHOT Show and they are very proud of their scopes reliability and ability to track.

I like Leupold scopes, and they have never failed me in the field. But, like my learned predecessors, I have to admit that, traditionally, Leupold adjustments were ho-hum. They *normally* moved the POI in the right direction (not all scopes get that right), but the amount of POI shift was often a gamble. I have the feeling Leupold might have improved in this area of late, though.

Zeiss has traditionally had the best adjustments in the scopes I have used. They were and are excellent. I have one old Swaro scope which is ho-hum.

Some (cheaper) scopes are plain horrible in terms of adjustments, and what results an adjustment brings is a gamble. I think one of the most difficult scopes I ran into was a Burris with a Posi-Lock. Tightening the Posi-Lock invariably caused a shift in POI...

With all scopes, it is probably a good idea to over adjust, and then click back again to the desired amount of adjustment. It is probably also wise to figure somewhat more POI shift per click than advertized. I also lightly tap the adjustment turrets after every adjustment - the idea is to avoid springs hanging up, but perhaps this is a bit like kicking tyres on a car, more tradition than proven "science"....

If a scope is not mounted squarely, adjustments in one plane will often cause POI shift in the perpendicular plane too. Some scopes have a nasty habit of not (or hardly) moving at all with an adjustment. Then you adjust some more, and after a few shots all of a sudden the combined adjustment takes effect, and you have to start adjusting back. That is when it gets "fun" and expensive in ammo and lost nerves...

- mike

quote:

I have to admit that, traditionally, Leupold adjustments were ho-hum. They *normally* moved the POI in the right direction (not all scopes get that right), but the amount of POI shift was often a gamble. I have the feeling Leupold might have improved in this area of late, though.

Zeiss has traditionally had the best adjustments in the scopes I have used. They were and are excellent. I have one old Swaro scope which is ho-hum.

Some (cheaper) scopes are plain horrible in terms of adjustments, and what results an adjustment brings is a gamble. I think one of the most difficult scopes I ran into was a Burris with a Posi-Lock. Tightening the Posi-Lock invariably caused a shift in POI...

Well, I have a couple of Leupold Mark 4 scopes coming; I'll have to see if they're any better. I may also have to try a Zeiss. And...I guess I won't try a Burris.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:

That's a pretty awesome group!!!
Kudos to the rifle's operator!!!

Mike (MHO) did a good job of summing it up. Leupold makes great scopes, but their internal adjustments have traditionally had two problems.

The first problem is that there is some "springback" that could well be the cause of the grouping problems you've experienced. With my older Leupolds I negate this by going about two clicks past the desired point, reversing one click back short of it, followed by one click forward to the desired detent. Then I fire one shot before starting a group to assure that the reticle is settled into place. This has worked unerringly for me.

The second problem with older Leupolds (the friction adjustable models) is that their adjustment scales were all over the place between the various models, with some marked in 1/4 MOA and others marked as course as 1 full MOA. Any and all were/are finely adjustable, but it sometimes takes trial and error to figure out how much you are moving them.

Leupold seems to have made some advances in later models. I have VX-II and VX-III target/varmint scopes that appear to move precisely 1/4 MOA and do so reptititiously and faithfully.

Now, if you want an example of foolproof scope adjustments, just get a hold of an old Weaver. Those clicks moved a quarter of an inch each and every time like clockwork. You just had to look through a slighly yellowish fog to see your quarter-inch of movement . Seriously, if a manufacturer took the old Weaver design and put today's inexpensive high quality glass in it with modern sealing materials it would be one of the finest optical gunsights available.

quote:

The first problem is that there is some "springback" that could well be the cause of the grouping problems you've experienced. With my older Leupolds I negate this by going about two clicks past the desired point, reversing one click back short of it, followed by one click forward to the desired detent. Then I fire one shot before starting a group to assure that the reticle is settled into place.

Actually, I tried going past and then back where I really wanted it and that didn't work. This scope also has click adjustments rather than friction adjustments.

I have a Leupold VX III that is a pretty good scope but it could track better. In looking at the new VX-7 and Vx-3 scopes they've gone to a dual spring erector setup. I suspect they've finally decided to do something about this issue.

Ken....

I like to shoot a 6" box test in order to see how the scope adjusts and record the results for future use. I only own one Burris but the adjustments in it are at least as good as most of my Leupolds.

Butch, what brand scope do you prefer? I'm considering upgrading on an F-class rifle.

I am stuck with my 45X Leupold at this time. I am hoping to be able to shoot a March next year. I used one,borrowed, at the Super Shoot and it was just great! I had a 12X42 NXS Nightforce and it was great, but was heavy and too hard to make the 10.5lb. weight.
Arnold Jewell, Jewell Triggers, has taken many scopes apart and says the old Tasco BR scopes had the best tracking system. Optics are terrible though. He was able with the help of Turk Takano to get a Tasco that had no internal adjustments and I think better glass for his BR rifle. He makes his own external adjustable mounts. Turk is responsible for putting the March Scope Co. together. He put together a doctor in Japan together with some of the best optical people in Japan. Deon Optics was formed. Lou Murdica, one of our BR shooters, put up a few hundred grand of his money to cover the first couple shipments of March scopes into the USA. Kelby's Inc. in Ohio is the sole US distributor. They have available, BR, Tactical, and Hunting scopes. 40x, 45x, 50x, 60x, 10x-60x, and 36x-55x. They also make the 5x-32x, 1x-10x, and a 2.5x-25x hunting scope. They use ED glass. I don't know if any body else has 10 magnification ratio in a rifle scope.
Butch

Thanks I'll contact Kelby's, that 5-32x should be fine for my uses. Thanks again

Are you letting the barrel cool? Could be it too.

Robert,
We use to hunt the Circle E which was about 15 miles due east of Rock Springs on the Nueces. What a beautiful area.
Butch

quote:

Are you letting the barrel cool? Could be it too.

Actually, the last time I shot, I reset the scope in the evening and then shot it the next morning. That would be 12 hours plus for the barrel to cool.

The March scopes look interesting. I don't see any prices on the Kelby's web site though.

As I recall, the March scopes are in the $2k + area.

Ken....

As mentioned, I have two of the Weaver T series, older ones in 10 and 16x, and they are a very positive "click" and hold settings well.
Glass is not the best, but OK. Recently purchased a couple Leupolds, VXIII's and their spring/detent ball arrangement is an improved version from the Vari X III's generation.(Leupold's web site details improvements made) My requirements are not as tough as the BR shooters and as long as the shot is in the 10 or X ring, or even on the line, that works for me.