I recently had a problem with a S&B scoped rifle after travel to South Africa. The rifle shot great before the trip, but was erratically inaccurate in South Africa. The rile looked OK, so I assumed the problem must be the scope. I contacted the S&B service center in the US by email, & they responded the same day. After receiving the scope, S&B tested, disassembled, cleaned and had the scope on its way back to me in about 4 days. They also kept me posted about their findings with the scope 2 or 3 times by email. All in all, I consider this excellent service. S&B was very responsive and helpful. And as it turned out, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the 23-year old S&B scope. That's reassuring, but now I must troubleshoot the rifle. It's an M98 with Krieger barrel and for 23 years it, as well as the scope, have been trouble free. Anyway, kudos to S&B!

Forgive my cynicism but I wonder if S&B did find and replace something gone wrong when they stripped it but were saving face by saying otherwise.

As I've said repeatedly, I don't trust scopes with constantly centred reticles (other than B&L 'Custom' and Pecar Champion types) and would not want one in Africa, no matter how good the warranty.

I have one 2.5x10x56.after many years of hard use on a 300 Jarrett it started loosing zero and the exterior lens needed recoating. They fixed it and recoated or replaced the exterior lens without being asked to. Returned like new free of charge. Customer service second to none.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Forgive my cynicism but I wonder if S&B did find and replace something gone wrong when they stripped it but were saving face by saying otherwise.

Aw, shucks, Bobby, is that impossible?

Are face-saving, arrogance and subterfuge unknown in the Germanic world?

I don't suppose they would ever make an alliance then invade their ally, fiddle auto-emissions controls or put car coolant into their wine.

Their products are top notch especially in low light.

Their customer service is even better. Had a question about a suitable mount for a PMII. They replied within an hour and even pointed me in the direction of a retail outlet to help me secure the item.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Aw, shucks, Bobby, is that impossible?

Are face-saving, arrogance and subterfuge unknown in the Germanic world?

I don't suppose they would ever make an alliance then invade their ally, fiddle auto-emissions controls or put car coolant into their wine.

----


sambarman338-

So I see your stereotyping extends not only to scopes you haven't even tried and know nothing about but to people as well...

No, guys, I was not referring to the quality of their products, just the possibility that when their scopes do break down (something modern, image-movement ones do sooner), they might just possibly fudge it for PR reasons, like people from any other country.

Do I know any Germans? Yes, quite a number and three of them are my old hunting buddies. And despite a couple still thinking that Hitler was a righteous dude, I like them and their culture.

Have I been to Germany? Only three times, I'm afraid, and never for long enough.

Do I respect their scope manufacturing? Well, I'm sure their lenses are second to none but, like virtually all makers, their use now of the Redfield/Weaver type of constantly centred reticles leaves me cold.

The old German and Austrian scopes were first rate, though, and adorn most of my rifles to this day. Zeiss's were probably the best, though Kahles could win the prize for toughness. Pecar's were pretty good but I hold them in highest regard because they never succumbed to image-movement.

What do I think of S&B? Well, I hear the modern ones are top-notch but I'm afraid the couple I've had from before the decadence could have been better. One had distortions in the lens picture and the turret mechanism had seized up. Also, the lens cement had turned yellow - but I've seen that in other good brands, too. The other scope seemed good in all regards except that the eye-piece bezel had been designed for a scope with much-shorter eye relief, leaving it prone to reflections from the sun.

MD375, I'm glad the M&B service is so good. My concern is that when you are in the middle of Africa or Alaska and some angry critter is racing towards you, the best warranty service in the world is worthless. Better, I think, to have equipment designed and built less-likely to break down. Except possibly for Elcan and some Romanian or Russian models, I don't think anyone makes scopes like that anymore, and those ones would not be great for hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

MD375, I'm glad the M&B service is so good. My concern is that when you are in the middle of Africa or Alaska and some angry critter is racing towards you, the best warranty service in the world is worthless. Better, I think, to have equipment designed and built less-likely to break down. Except possibly for Elcan and some Romanian or Russian models, I don't think anyone makes scopes like that anymore, and those ones would not be great for hunting.

Actually most of my hunting is in the middle of Africa. My favourite brands are Kahles, S&B and swaro. I have come to completely trust them over 20+ plus safaris.

Next hunt is in the desert of somaliland and my swaro or kahles will be the there with me!

They all have good glass, MD375, but presumably share the curse of the articulated erector tube. Hopefully the curse will not blight your safari.

I know at least that the better Swaros have left the flat erector spring behind. If your scopes have 30mm tubes, that is also some assurance. Some people think it is just to give extra elevation adjustment but I've found half the extra 4.6mm usually goes to strengthening the scope against bending and bumps.

So what, they fixed it, its working now, thats all that counts for pity sakes, as mama used to say!

True, Ray, but I think of the implications. If scopes go bad at the range they can go bad on the range or, worse still, when some critter takes umbrage in Africa. Then, you may not have time to drag out the spare or even undo your QD mounts.

All sorts of things can go wrong with scopes, young and old, and nothing lasts for ever. I just like to eliminate the most obvious likelihoods - these days erector tubes and big, bendy bodies. Waterproofness used to be the main bugbear and I use electrical tape on some brands to help there. But s--t does happen and even my Kahles with its pioneering O-rings fogged up after only 21 years, albeit following two or three mitigating issues.

Just to throw some gas on this topic--I'm the original poster. I finally was able to shoot my M98 9.3x62 with a different scope. The old girl shot as well as before with the new scope. As the only three variables in this equation are the rifle, the scope and the ammo and that I've never heard of freshly loaded ammo in brand new cases going bad in 10 days, I'm forced to return to my original opinion that the accuracy problems were the result of the scope and nothing else. S&B said there was nothing wrong with the scope and charged me >$300 for a service. I have not been able to give the repaired scope a thorough range evaluation. I hope it's OK now, but it definitely caused big problems in South Africa and made my rifle unusable.

Thanks RGW. Their charging $300 puts a slightly different light on it. Obviously they're not Leupold

Paid work on scopes is rarely cheap, though. Getting Kahles to refurbish my old Helia Super 27 in 2002 cost me $540 (South Pacific pesos, that is). That said, image-movement scopes should be easier to work on because most of the guts come out as one assembly by undoing the odd screw at the back.

The erector spring (or part of it) may have shaken out separately, of course - presumably the problem.

Ive noticed with Leupold that they give you a new scope 9 times out of 10 trade in on old scopes as parts age as to design. Which brings up the question did S&B still have old parts to fix with and have they not improved things over time?? just saying????

You'd think they might keep parts for a relatively modern design from only 23 years ago.

I asked Swarovski for help with an early Habicht that had frozen in both turrets and focus, however, but was told they did not service those old scopes anymore and had no one who could give advice on them.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Ive noticed with Leupold that they give you a new scope 9 times out of 10 trade in on old scopes as parts age as to design. Which brings up the question did S&B still have old parts to fix with and have they not improved things over time?? just saying????

They guarantee parts for up to 30 years and in some cases 40 years from date of production.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
You'd think they might keep parts for a relatively modern design from only 23 years ago.

I asked Swarovski for help with an early Habicht that had frozen in both turrets and focus, however, but was told they did not service those old scopes anymore and had no one who could give advice on them.

What year were those scopes from?

I recently sent 2x Habicht scopes and 1x Binos all repaired and returned within a few months. Mind you most of the delay comes from our customs verifying repairs and serial numbers before releasing the goods.

I had trouble with two Swaro Habicht scopes, MD375, both reticle-movement so probably from before 1980. They had started making image-movement models a few years earlier but continued selling the old type at least until 1979.

Why did those scopes freeze up? I put it down to their having been so reliable the owners had not needed to touch the knobs for decades.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I had trouble with two Swaro Habicht scopes, MD375, both reticle-movement so probably from before 1980. They had started making image-movement models a few years earlier but continued selling the old type at least until 1979.

Why did those scopes freeze up? I put it down to their having been so reliable the owners had not needed to touch the knobs for decades.

I just had a Kahles 8x56 that the adjustments would not move. Same reason, never had to adjust till I moved it onto another rifle. A good clean and service and all good now.

Pete

What did the service cost, Foxhunter, and who did it?

I 'fixed' my own but managed to break the head off a tiny, unmoving screw on one turret. A hot poultice around the ocular housing allowed me to move the focus.

PM sent.

Pete

Sorry Foxhunter, but if you messaged me, I'm afraid it didn't get through. I've been on hols for a week, mostly in places without internet.

Cheers
- 'Sam'

Hi 'Sam',
I tried to send another PM tonight but the system refused to let me. I will try again tomorrow night.

Pete

For anyone wondering, Foxhunter did then get through, upon which I discovered he'd paid less than $400 for a complete refurbishment by possibly Australia's best scope repairer.

To me that is good value, particularly if you need a scope for a hard-kicking rifle that must not let you down. I'm pretty sure hunting scopes with that mechanical reliability cannot be bought new today.

Just sent a S&B scope from around late 1980's to be serviced and all worn parts to be replaced. Was charged just over 300eur.

Also had a stripped screw from a friend's scope, replacements were sent no charges.