So I have been invited to go hunting next month in the Texas Hill Country, far western part, for Mouflon and Auodad. The area we will be hunting is very hilly/canyon land. Lots of rocks, scrubby trees. Shots could be 10 yards or infinite.

At this point, I have neither binoculars nor a rangefinder. I only have the money to buy one right now, as I do intend to buy quality (otherwise I could buy both at once). The obvious is the binos first, but they do have a set of smaller Swarovskis at the ranch that are there for visitors to borrow, so for this hunt, I will have some 8x compacts (which model, I don't know) to use while I am there.

So I am thinking maybe the rangefinder comes first, but I am not sure on that, because it is going to take me the rest of the year, at least, to save up for binos, and so wont have any for subsequent hunts until that time. The two choices I have before me are Leica CRF's of some sort, and the Swaro Laser Guides. The Swaro's I find particularly interesting because I am told the glass is good enough to use in place of a bino in some cases...but that they are pretty bulky and have some downsides. Considering I have never seen one in a store, I have to guess, read and ask advice. And maybe I would be better served by a more compact RF that will better pair with the subsequent bino's I will buy at the end of the year...don't know, I am not experienced enough to say.

On the other hand, I am looking at various binos, including used Swaro SLC Neu's, Razors, Meostars, Conquest HD's . Maybe this is a smarter first purchase instead of the rangefinder, despite the availability of the compact loaners....

So what would you buy first? Is the Swaro RF the way to go, and will it work well as a compact bino, and still pair well with the eventual FS pair I will buy? Or would you eschew the RF for now, and go binos first...and maybe eventually pair it with the Leica RF or would it still be the Swaro?

Thanks in advance for your advice!

Bino's. No question. You can't range 'em if you can't find 'em. Gotta find 'em first. (*'Em. That's mah Texahs draaawel thar...)

As to Hill Country, I've hunted on several farms in the Lampasas & Hondo area's, about 90 minutes outside San Antonio. I also used to hunt a 500 acre lease pretty extensively. I had to work to find any shot over 160 yards.

Given that Texas is primarily private land hunted from a box blind my recommendation is to call the land owner and find out what normal distances are. I'm betting well under 200 yards - which, if a rifle typically means trajectory isn't much of an issue.

Bino's is where I'd start. Every time. I'd suggest 10x bins.

Cant argue with Movi's logic. I hunted for many years here in Texas without a rangefinder and never knew that I was handicapped.

Is the hunt "guided"? If so, the guide will be able to give you distances. If you hunt from a blind, they should be able to give you distances to various landmarks. If spot and stalk. stalk to within range (that's called hunting).

Robert,

Thanks for the reply! I have hunted out near Lampasas a few times myself. Been a few years since I made it out that way though.

The ranch I am going to belongs to a friend's uncle. I usto hunt there quite a bit, and you are right, for deer, it's all blinds...longest shot is probably 150 yards, most are much closer.

However, the part of the ranch we are hunting, and the way it is done for the sheep entails climbing up and down through the 'canyon's' (I put that in quotes because they are maybe 100 or 200 ft deep, at most)...and searching and glassing. It's very different country than the area around Lampasas. We have had shots over 400 yards out there, and if I was good enough (which I am not!) 5 and 600 plus yard shots, further still. I once chased a Texas Dall ( and got lost), the first I saw it, coulda taken it but it was at over 600 yards based on a previous ranging in that area that we had done with a borrowed rangefinder. So shots can be very long for the sheep out there.

So you are probably right...binos are an absolute must! If I could not borrow some Swaros, no question. But I guess what I am twisting about is for usual close range stuff that we have in Texas that you mention, not necessarily this hunt, would that Swaro rangefinder be good enough until I get the money saved for binos. That way I have both for this hunt, as I will have the loaners.

I may have another cow elk hunt hunt to go on in a couple months...it'll be more standard Texas landscape and be guided...heavier brush, shorter ranges. I won't be shooting, my 11 year old will, and he has my old Nikons that I just gave him.

So I could get that swaro rangefinder, use it and then pick up some nice bigger glass around Christmas for myself. But if the swaro glass is not up to even the light duty glassing I'll do with regular Texas hunting, then I would be stuck with a bulky rangefinder that was good for nothing else, and maybe not as good or convenient as the Leicas...So maybe the binos needed to come first, or maybe the Leica should be bought instead.

I probably made that even more confusing, it's hard for me to express it all in writing, but if you made it this far in, thanks for suffering my poor expression and for your advice!

Hey Joe, thanks for the comments!

It is just us being cut loose into the canyons of the ranch. It's my buddy's uncle's ranch. Spot and stalk. My buddy probably wont even be there.

I'll have some loaner swaro binos, and my sons will have some older Nikon Monarchs and a pair of Vortex Raptors.

But no way for me to judge distances, and as I don't spend any time out there, I don't trust my judgement on ranges. Okay, lets be honest, I suck estimating range anywhere...but especially out there! So hence my consideration of the RF..plus the fact I'll have some Swaro binos for the hunt.

But on a subsequent hunt we are working on, I won't have the loaner Swaro's, though my sons will have their binos. That one will be guided, so I wondered if I could get by on that hunt, and generally glassing from short range stands, with the Swaro rf..until I save enough for some larger glass.

Then also comes the question..is the Leica a better way to go (not for looking but ranging)..smaller...has the inclinometer...but I know it won't do for any glassing at all...I have looked through the CRF's and they won't work for me for that purpose. So if the are the better buy, then they will have to wait because though I will have binos for the sheep hunt no matter what, I won't have any for deer etc. this fall if I buy the rf first.

Thanks!

Lots of name dropping in this thread.

However they always mention being short on money,

If you can get there early see what binoculars are there and if you can use them. If your getting there at the last minute then go to Walmart and look through some of their 7-35 or 8-40 binos and bring them with you.

We hunted for years without rangefinders. When you walk count your paces. Use that method to estimate range.

Seriously folks. Why not buy both.
Go here Vortex at Cameralandny.com
These are functional damn good binos! Then find you a good range illuminated range finder. Remember we are talking about hunting the Texas Hill Country. You don't need to range finder or binos to see from Odessa to Pecos!

The people you hunt with in Texas couldn't care less about brand names. They care about your character! You'll do just fine!

If your hunting when we are up at our place in Mountain Home, Texas, stop by and I'll buy you a cold beer!

I wouldn't bother to take rangefinders hunting. They aren't really practical. It is (1) very difficult, even with the best of them, to get a reading on a relatively small, non-reflective ball of hair like a goat when it is more than a couple of hundred yards away, and (2) time is more important than knowing the exact distance, since those species tend to be wily and don't stand for long once quarry and questor have spotted one another. Besides, wind is much more difficult to judge (and less constant) than distance, so your bigger challenge in hitting a distant animal is windage, not elevation.

Spend your money on binos, not gimmicks (yes, I own a rangefinder and use it for certain purposes, but never to attempt to range a game animal.)

That is for sure a recommendation. I actually have a good deal on tap for either Viper HD's or Talon HD's...either would let me by an RF as well.

Two things are 1) My eyes definitely are not as good as they usto be...I find that I need more mag and quality to see what I usto be able to see...low light also is worse..getting older sucks

2) So I research what I should get and the net is very useful but also unreliable...but the recommendation is always 'better glass is worth it, buy all you can afford, save up and wait if you must'. And I generally buy into that, but only to a degree, how much is internet blah blah?

So short of having the opp to actually hunt with, say a Viper HD vs a used Swaro SCL Neu, and see whether it's really going to matter for me, I have to try and gather opinions and try and make a good determined choice.

And that's what I am struggling with...real world matters vs. maybe advice that would put me in the poor house unnecessarily.

I will say this, I want to buy for the long term under all conditions, all hunts. The Nikons I just gave to my son, I thought were 'good enough', but now they are definitely not for me (too dim in real world use, etc.). Not that they are bad, and probably be great for his better eyes, but I have been in situations where i needed more light to judge a shooter or not a shooter, and they let me down. Let alone compared to my new scopes etc...I need to step up...but that doesn't mean stretching so far I get a groin strain

Chad T--What size are the Nikons you gave your son? I'm guessing fairly high powered and small objective. That combination would not be good for older eyes. Go to EBAY and find a pair of Rochchester NY made Bausch&Lomb binos. 7x50 would be a little better in lower light, but bulky. The 7x35's Zephyrs work just fine for my old eyes and I cant tell any difference in them and the 7x50. Many pairs of them made it through World War Two and are still in fine shape--can't ask for better than that.

Chad,

Ranging is not easy without a tool. Have you considered trying to range with Duplex scopes? For instance, the 2.5-8x Leupold duplex is designed around the torso size of a deer. Just fill the duplex with the deer torso and read the relative distance that's measured on the top of the power ring.

Back to Rangefinding. I do have a Leica CRF900. I have, on good days, ranged to over 1000 yards with them. Having said that, the glass in no way compares to what I have in even lesser binoculars. My old Nikons are far better and I'm not even comparing them to my Zeiss and Leica's...

Rangefinders have their place. Using them in stead of Bino's though...it just hasn't worked for me.

Thanks for all the responses here. Based on this advice and the advice I have received elsewhere, looks like RF's take a back seat, binos come first. So it's down to medium level pricing (Viper HDish level), or higher level pricing (Used SLC Neu's maybe...but also Razor HD's and Meostar HD's).

I only want to buy once, and buy for the future as well, and I have found looking through the Swaro's, I have always liked them better than anything else. But I am still not convinced I want to spend that much money, even at the used discount, so may stick to the mid range stuff, and get both the RF and the bino at the same time.

It's down to the actual performance boost and whether it will really make a real world difference.

I like the buy once cry once philosophy, try to embrace it, just does,nt always quite work out..
Guns, glass, backpacks, they all come down to fit, for me. One size does not fit all, and not all eyes see the same. Take the time to look through different binocs, be mindful of how you hunt, and light conditions when and where you hunt. Take a look through the mid range binocs, whether Leupold, Nikon, Bushnell, Vortex, what ever..if not outside, at least through a window so you can see how they look with natural light, not florescent. If you,re doing most of your glassing seated, 10 power might work better for you..

A side note, I,ve got a little Vortex monocular, 8 power, light and handy, clips over a pack strap, handy, out of the way, easy to carry. Good for a quick peak at something. You just don,t get as much detail or depth as with binoculars,keeping one eye closed loses it,s charm fairly quickly. I suspect tryna do alot of glassing with a rangefinder would just be more of the same..

Hey Muttly,

Great points. Yeah, I really try not to buy anything without a lot of thought (and internet posts!). I try hard to balance quality with real world need/effectiveness. Not to hot, not too cold..bit of a trick when you lack experience in stuff to make the proper judgements, but that's where posts like these come in.

So yeah, I am on the path to finding binos at this point. I looked through some Meostars vs Swaro EL's and SLC's today. I thought the EL's were the best, followed very closely by the SLC's. There was a clarity difference, and slight brightness difference to my eyes vs the Meostars, which should be expected for the extra 1kish those two cost.

Just to get an idea, I compared what were my favorites in the 500ish range (Viper HD's) to the others. Here I saw a significant difference in clarity and brightness. No doubt at all, as well there should be.

So there is no question you get more with the others, but the question is, will it really matter? Just because you have a car that can do 300 mph, how much difference will it make driving to work downtown...if you know what I mean.

Ultimately, though, I think I am going to try to reach the Razor, Meostar level, trying to get some SLC Neu's, though I don't know how good these are vs what I have seen.

Will say this, ergonomically, I liked the EL's best, followed by the SLC's. The Meostars felt to short and cramped, and yet too fat and would take a lot of getting usto for my hands. But they may be in the cost sweet spot for me.

Finally, on your last comment re 8x's and 10x's..I notice that 10x's give me eyestrain more easily than 8x's...all else equal, 8x's will be brighter and easier to hold still,,but at the same time, my eyes are older than they usto be and I find I really can use all the extra mag I can get, and don't mind the smaller FOV either (seems to help me focus on the trees, not the forest as a whole). So still not sure on what I will do here...SLC Neu's and Meostars are a 10x option only...Razors offer both but. Could be pairing 10x's with a rangefinder with decent glass could be good...8x rangefinder for 'quick peeks', like your monocular, and the 10x binos for the real work. I actually could hold the Leica CRF's as still as the Zeiss PRF today because it allows me to pull my arms together and then down into my chest. Glass was nicer too, but FOV was smaller. If the Laser Guide had an inclinometer and a less divergent beam, I would probably go that route, might make a nice pairing.

To save some $$$, look at the Cables Euro HD binos. They are made by Meopta. I'd planned to buy a pair last year before the sales guy talked me into some Swaro Els.

Chad T, A couple of things to note about binoculars:

Roof prism vs. porro prism: In binos of similar power and lens size the roof prism will be more compact and lighter, but usually a bit longer. In similar quality, the roof prism will be a bit more expensive. Sometimes a lower cost porro prism instrument will outperform a bit higher cost roof prism, but not always, certainly. The wider lens separation of the porro provides a bit better depth perception, at least in theory. I have and use both, but can't really tell much practical difference in them.

8x is better for long sessions of scanning. 10X is better for spotting, meaning resolving what it is you are seeing. 8X will typically result in less eye strain when used for long periods, but it is the collimation (the proper alignment of the two barrels) which prevents or causes eyestrain much more so than magnification or even misfocus. If you anticipate sitting and scanning for game most of the time, instead of using your binos for evaluating game after it is spotted, then you might want to opt for a little less rather than more power.

Collimation: The mechanical alignment of the two barrels is of tantamount importance. I'm amazed at how little attention even the makers of expensive binos tend to pay to this critical issue. All individual instruments, even though they might be presumed "identical" and have come from the same shipment, are not created equal. If you have the opportunity, check several instruments of the make and model you want to buy in the store (or on the street outside) to see which has the most accurate barrel alignment. THIS IS IMPORTANT. Spending a little while screwing your eyeballs around trying to get two dissimilar images to merge will soon turn into a raging headache.

Overall size and weight is a factor. If it is too bulky/heavy to wear around your neck, then you won't have it in-hand when it is needed. The same is true of a camera, which is why I carry a simple pocket model. It's picture won't be as sophisticated, but the poorest photo is the one which wasn't taken at all because the big, fancy camera which was left behind was too bulky, heavy, expensive, and delicate to take with you in the field.

Buy binos without doubt.

Personally, if money is tight, I'd suggest you consider a used pair of well known "best" brand binos, possibly a generation or so behind the latest greatest.

As an example, nearly 50 years ago I bought a then top of the line Zeiss 10x42s in, I think, the Cayman Islands. The Zeiss "Classics" are/were the same design but, of course, had more modern coatings.

While they certainly are not an even match optically for the very best of the modern binos, they are still so close that it is hard to tell the differences under ordinary use. I currently use mostly Leicas but the 50 yr old Zeiss' are not chopped liver and I would not feel "underglassed" using them anytime. I have used them on several African trips and they were better than what the PH had with one exception (Swaros).

The best will still be good glass for your kid's kids. Most of the cheaper stuff will have long since been thrown or given away, or chunked in a drawer.

Stonecreek,

Thanks for the advice! I've learned alot from folks on this board, hopefully I made a good decision.

I ended up (hopefully) lucking into a really good deal on a set of 10x42 Victory FL's. I must admit that I sorta would have preferred an 8x for it's superior light gathering and the possibility of maybe it being easier on the eyes, but another part of me wanted a 10x. I wavered back and forth on this because I find that I really need more mag these days, more than I usto, to resolve things. In the end, if I wanted these binos, the choice was made for me.

Assuming they check out okay when they arrive, I got a great deal according to some others that advised me from the boards. And I talked with Zeiss already, basically, it sounds like even if they have to do a lot of work, I will still have a far better deal than anything else I found on the web with that level of quality.

So I hope they are all that they are cracked up to be, I'll find out when they arrive next week. I'll keep them for a couple days, and they they go off to Zeiss for a cleaning, checkup, recolimation, adjustment etc. That's free of charge. They'll replace any small worn parts free as well. Then charge, apparently minimally, for anything more major.

We'll see, hopefully, nothing is needed!

Gato,

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, the vote was absolutely unanimous, everyone agreed Binos first. I ended up lucking into a great deal on some Zeiss FL's, so they are on the way. I will be immediately be sending them off to Zeiss for a tuneup. They are an internet deal, but the guy seemed really nice and is a hunting equipment rep, so I think it's all going to work out. Zeiss will fix most stuff for free, and others sounds like they will be very reasonable, so I think I'll be covered no matter what.

Great choice. I dunno about a tune-up unless there is something wrong with them? I also don't know about your budget, but you bought some good glass that will last your for a long time. Be careful out there, good glass grows "Legs" around some people.

Leupold Yosemite

BTW I don't know what you shoot but you can certainly help your "ranging" with a flat shooting rifle. A fast 6 to 7mm rifle with a slightly lighter QUALITY bullet will make up for many range guessing errors. As the old saying goes (especially when sighted in for longer ranges), hold on hair. I'd consider something like a 7mm RM (mentioned because it is a common caliber) sighted in at 250 yds to be a good choice.

I'll go along with Gato. With a 7mm Rem magnum and 150 or 160 grain bullets drop is immaterial at what I consider normal hunting ranges.