There's a lot of talk these days about the various ballistic aids available to shooters. Scopes now offer ballistic reticles--those "Christmas tree" reticles--and ballistic turrets, where you twist the elevation turret for different ranges.

I've never used any of these aids, instead using holdovers for the different ranges. Does anyone on here find the newer ballistic aids useful?

I bought my first scope with a turret a few years back, it’s a Leupold VX3 2.5x10. For me the jury is still out on whether I like it or not. I keep thinking I will see if Leupold will send me a conventional turret and cap to change it if it ultimately doesn’t work out.

What I haven’t liked so far is if I carry a backpack in the mountains where I mostly hunt with the rifle slung sometimes I find it will turn the knob by rubbing on the pack. I wish there was a way to lock the turret so this doesn’t happen. It also strikes me as somewhat gimmicky and just one more thing to have to deal with during a hunt. The world nowadays is full of gimmicks and I like to keep things simple and reliable as possible. Besides I haven’t had much trouble just holding over using a range finder. I’m not really a long range shooter anyway compared to what some people consider long range. I would much rather hunt something at closer range then shoot at it at long range even if that means I go home empty handed sometimes.

Though I'm more inclined to set it up for 200 yards and forget shots much over 300, I would much prefer Christmas trees to cranking knobs that I might forget to wind back. The latter practice only appeals with constantly centred scopes, of course, but if I took one of my old reticles down 50 clicks I would not forget where it was

Another issue with winding knobs away from the centre is that it puts great strain on the spring(s) and if there is also a lateral displacement, things can get twisted and breakages may follow.

I have used both reticles with holdovers and dialed scopes (with tactical type turrets).

At longer ranges I like the confidence of a precise holdover/adjustment vs. simply estimating how much to "hold off". That said, I've done that too with success and probably more often, but also with knowing the trajectory quite well / having a drop chart.

I had a ballistic turret Z5 that I sometimes wish that I had kept, but it had limited dialing with that system installed. I only shot it once at the range. I am happier just to dial away and count (or read in times past when I could see well!).

I do prefer capped turret for hunting so the IOR's I used a great deal at one time offered that; a tactical turret with great tactile clicks that you could cap. These days most lock so it is possibly a moot point, but I've seen exposed turrets "dial" putting rifles in bags, stalking, walking etc. I still have the IOR's.

I think a reticle with holdovers is useful and faster if you have the right knowledge, or drop chart at hand and if the spaces are not too large. I prefer fixed spacing and knowing the MOA or mills to hold, to these one size fits all type of arrangement most scopes offer. However, unless the scope is FFP, the holdovers change and I also have messed up a hold over as my magnification was not set at the maximum (which I often find too much for hunting).

All versions work but all have limitations and can require focus on something that can be forgotten in the heat of the moment to get them right.

I agree that there is little need for any of this inside of probably 200-300m depending on the cartridge and how small your target is. I also found over time that I had hunted very few game animals beyond that range anyway.

If I was on an expensive hunt requiring shots to 500m I'd want to dial, provided I had the time.

All are just silly gimmicks!

Never use them

Never buy a scope with these.

My rifle is set about 1-2 inch high at 100 yards.

I have shot animals out to 500 without any trouble!

Judging distance accurately is very important!

Ballistic turrets are not new at all. Some military sniper scopes have had them for almost as long as military sniper rifles have had scopes. Some other military weapons had them as well. A friend of mine once had a small scope with a ballistic turret and a ranging feature on the reticle which we thought to be of Russian origin. I know the RPG7 also had a scope with those features.

I have one that was set up for .223. It worked fairly well.

The problem of course is that trajectory changes with air density and temperature, so these things are only fairly good.

Some Christmas tree reticles are much easier to "true" if the various dots have known and consistent spacings (mills or MOA). I believe these things are very valuable if you have to engage reasonably large targets at different ranges quickly. But that type of usage is really the preserve of military marksmen and seldom found in either sporting or hunting applications.

An example of skillful use of one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...LVr4xBLXOCWv&index=1

I begin to understand why it is called the Scar

MOST rifles adjusted dead on at 25 yards will be 1-2 Inches high at 100. That was Jack O'connors recommendation.

After bore sighting, I group at 25 yds. then go back to 100 to fine tune.

After bore sighting, I group at 25 yds. then go back to 100 to fine tune.___


+1

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
MOST rifles adjusted dead on at 25 yards will be 1-2 Inches high at 100. That was Jack O'connors recommendation.

For traditionally-styled bolt-actions to be used inside of say 300 yards, that works very well.

Something with a high bore offset (like an AR, which typically has 2.5" or more offset), this doesn't work.
I am running a 3" bore offset on a .308. This will shoot right over the top of a target at 100 if zeroed at 25.

Also, if you want to shoot at long ranges, you really need to have a known zero at a sufficient distance to be accurate.

The initial crossover can also vary with rifles with conventional scope set-ups and expectations. Thus a .22LR is best zeroed first at about 22 yards but in some really flat-shooting calibres 50 yards may not be too far. The reason in the latter case is that the suggested impact at 100 may only be 1.25 inches high.

I don't care for the Christmas tree reticle. For me it just to cluttered! A couple of dots below for quick hold over and a custom dial when there is time.

I wouldn't own one for hunting, never needed one, Ive seen more hunts go south over hunters monking with them as the animal walked over the mountain to less noisy places.

Apparently wartime Japanese scopes had a grid over the entire FoV, with no central aiming mark. This, it seems, cut the Gordian on mounting - the sniper had to find for himself where the bullets impacted at different ranges and just remember the intersection concerned.

quote:

Though I'm more inclined to set it up for 200 yards and forget shots much over 300, I would much prefer Christmas trees to cranking knobs that I might forget to wind back.

Knob cranking is impractical in real hunting conditions where the shot may be offered for only a fleeting few seconds. However, it is popular with the younger and less experienced among us -- they might at least be able to remember where the damn thing was set the last time they shot it. Similarly, complicated "Christmas trees" which include attempts at windage guides can be cluttered and confusing, and are practical only for some type of shooting like colony varmints.

I find the Leupold Long Range Duplex to be relatively simple and uncluttered -- and if the aiming dots on the lower crosshair are proven from the bench with a known load, they can be helpful for extended ranges. That said, it is not often that a hunter should take a shot beyond his rifle's point blank range to begin with.

All of my Swarovski Z-5s have the custom ballistic turrets on them. I ordered them from Outdoorsman's in Phoenix. You go online, fill out the form with the required information and in less than a month you have it. All of the basic information is engraved on the top of the turret, so you can identify your ballistic information. Mine are all zeroed at 200 yds and will dial out to nearly 700 yards in 25 yard increments. I range find the animal with the Swarovski or Leica range finding binos and then dial up the scope and shoot. I have shot many animals with them. After effectively using them, I wouldn't hunt without one now. Easy peasy.

I use turrets, but only shooting out past 400 yards and at steel. On rare occasions have I shot past that distance. The turrets took out the guess work.

I made a 706 yard shot on a Marco Polo sheep as that was the closest we could get. Temps were -30F, no wind and I made the shot using the turrets.

I have made a few others, but prefer to always get close.

If you plan to shoot long distance, You really should invest in attending the SAAM school or a similar long range shooting school. Get trained. I learned a lot while I was there and highly recommend it. You will shoot 400 rounds or more long distance and learn more than you ever thought you would.

A better option for me is the illuminated center dot. That feature is valuable and I use it every time.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
. . .
A better option for me is the illuminated center dot. That feature is valuable and I use it every time.

Forgive my Luddite ignorance, but how does that relate to compensating for drop at long distance?

From a sporting/reliability PoV, my reaction is a noise Lurch would emit.

I agree with what someone else said. I'd prefer a relatively simple BDC reticle that is FFP so the holds remain constant and capped turrets for hunting. Touching dials after I've painstakingly dialed in a scope just makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Tape a simple BDC chart that correlates to the trajectory/BDC holds on your stock and the forgetful minded like me can keep it straight.

Aim Point Stickers

1. You don't need a tactical rifle scope with ballistic turrets and a "Christmas tree" reticle for hunting. Twenty years of the Global War on Terrorism has made lots of men believe they are steely eyed, Billy Joe badass snipers or at least they want to emulate snipers. The optics companies and television companies saw an opportunity to make some money by declaring everything requires "tactical" gear and produced years of shows that extreme long-range hunting of game is what real men do every day. Oh, and chicks dig it.

2. A quality standard minute of angle (MOA) or milliradian (MRAD) scope with a duplex reticle (it doesn't even have to be lighted) will cover 95% (or more) of the hunting situations here on planet earth. The sniping of enemy combatants, some prairie dogs/varmints, and in extreme cases, sheep and goats around the world will make shooting longer distances somewhat quicker and easier with a "tactical" scope.

3. 99% of PHs and other professional guides subscribe to getting closer to the game being hunted rather than moving farther away. We all know why that is. The 1% who don't are idiots who should not be in the profession.

4. The vast majority of "hunters" will benefit greatly by attending a certified rifle shooting course. Even the best professionals receive quality coaching.

5. Practice your hunting field craft (range estimation is a high priority) and go to the shooting range more often for more perfect practice with your hunting rifle and duplex scope.

Once you start shooting steeply up or down hill your flat range trajectories don't work so well. A range finder that gives corrected distances based on the angle of shooting makes a big difference to successful long shots when hunting in alpine regions for deer, goats, tahr and chamois.

A scope with a ballistic turret such as the Leupold CDS system with the vertical adjustment turret set for your cartridges 'flat' sighted in trajectory plus a range finder with the Bushnell ARC system or a similar angle compensation system and as well as your trajectory dialed in, takes the estimation of holdover out of the human error equation.

I plan on putting such a scope, a Leupold VX-5HD 3-15x44 CDS-ZL2 on my 7mm WSM for tahr hunting once I garner a bit of spare money, my nephew has a Leupold VX3-HD model on his 7mm RM and swears by the dial up turret for those long shots in alpine country where range estimation and holdover without the aid of a rangefinder at minimum is by guess or by golly.

Don't tell me you are all so good that you can accurately estimate range and holdover in this sort of country where big trophy bull tahr, red stag and buck chamois live.
Well just get closer!!! Hmm

quote:

Don't tell me you are all so good that you can accurately estimate range and holdover in this sort of country where big trophy bull tahr, red stag and buck chamois live.

I commented earlier that I wasn’t sure I needed one at this point in my hunting career but if I was doing the type of hunting that really demanded it I would certainly learn to use one.

Where I live sheep and mountain goats can generally be stalked closer, especially mountain goats - if you can draw the tag in the first place.

In my pd rifles I've become use to adjusting the turrets for elevation/range and wind/windage.....depending on the cartridge. I feel they are MUCH more accurate than my ability to hold off "half-a-dog", etc.

Being new to the ballistic reticles, there is some difficulty tailoring the stadia to a given cartridge. It's a work in progress.....pending the next pd trip.

As for accurate range estimation.....I can't....and seriously doubt anyone can, past about 200 yards....ESPECIALLY at small targets on relatively flat terrain. Picking a "near-by bush/cactus" and thinking it's next to your target....is a fools errand.

JMHO....or 2 cents.

Kevin

I guess that since the NZ government regards tahr as pests, Eagle, concepts of sportsmanship are irrelevant there and, for the most part, here. Yet I eschew electronic devices when hunting game and count both tahr and sambar as critters worthy of the name.

I did make a protractor to correct trajectory compensation on steep shots years ago but always forgot to use it when a bull appeared. Not that it would have solved all problems, as you know, such as the target 300 yards up or down a cliff that is only 50 or 100 yards away gravity-wise. Then we need the electronic cheats you mention, to be precise.

My answer would be a very flat-shooting rifle with a small scope with Christmas tree, mounted as low as possible and zeroed no farther than at 200 yards to minimise mid-range bullet rise. For long horizontal shots I would use the stadia but on steep shots, just shoot a bit low.

I note the scope you're thinking about is rather large. From bitter experience I know that big scopes are a handicap in mountain hunting. The more sticking out each end of the mounts, the greater the chance a bump will wrench them out of whack.

Good luck with the project

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I guess that since the NZ government regards tahr as pests, Eagle, concepts of sportsmanship are irrelevant there and, for the most part, here. Yet I eschew electronic devices when hunting game and count both tahr and sambar as critters worthy of the name.

I did make a protractor to correct trajectory compensation on steep shots years ago but always forgot to use it when a bull appeared. Not that it would have solved all problems, as you know, such as the target 300 yards up or down a cliff that is only 50 or 100 yards away gravity-wise. Then we need the electronic cheats you mention, to be precise.

My answer would be a very flat-shooting rifle with a small scope with Christmas tree, mounted as low as possible and zeroed no farther than at 200 yards to minimise mid-range bullet rise. For long horizontal shots I would use the stadia but on steep shots, just shoot a bit low.

I note the scope you're thinking about is rather large. From bitter experience I know that big scopes are a handicap in mountain hunting. The more sticking out each end of the mounts, the greater the chance a bump will wrench them out of whack.

Good luck with the project

Sambarman you are correct in everything you have said. Most hunters here do have a sense of sportsmanship in wanting to shoot animals cleanly however apart from losing a trophy or meat for the the freezer we do not cry over a lost animal or chastise a hunter who wounds and loses an animal, its just a bitch fact of life for us.

I currently have a standard 1" tube Leupold VX3 on my 7mm WSM, a nice sized scope but of course even once an animal is ranged and the hold over provided by the range finder I still have to estimate that hold over and physically do it. My nephew says that being able to dial up the scope for the angle corrected range for the cartridge trajectory and hold dead on is amazing.

My son recently ranged a red deer at 380m angle corrected uphill so was probably a good bit over 400m as the crow flies. He is a builder so as such has a good grasp of metric measurements. With my 7mm WSM he held over the given amount the range finder indicated and planted the bullet high in the shoulders of the animal dropping it stone dead on the spot.

Leupold also produce a VX3 CDS scope but by all accounts from those using one the VX5-5HD CDS scope is an optical beauty. My boys all use daypacks with a built in rifle scabbard so the rifle and scope are pretty well protected while climbing and traversing in rough country. The rifle rig taken out and readied for action once an 'observation post' is established

Yes, Eagle, the world moves on, not that Kiwis are any stranger to long shots. About 45 years ago I hunted with one who told me he'd shot red deer at 600 yards with a Lee Metford and the original sights.

Part of tne problem I have with extreme ranges is the loss of energy as they get farther out. I still recall Elmer Keith writing that many of the bullets at Camp Perry were lucky to penetrate the paper.

I have a couple of the ballistic reticle scopes, but I dont use them for hunting. I agree they are too cluttered, give me a nice clean duplex reticle for hunting every time. Doping at practical ranges is easy. The ballistic reticles are great fun for long range target shooting though. Simple and easy to become proficient with out to 700-800 yds. For longer shots turret adjustments are the way to go.

All my ballistic reticle scopes are Swarovskis, with the bars and dots. I like this system and with practise have become used to it. I much prefer "simple" and have never opted for ballistic turrets. Not knocking ballistic turrets as I know guys who use them effectively but usually they're taking longer shots than I do. My self imposed max range for game is 400 yds ( or close ) and using the ballistic reticles I can confidently get good shots out there. Game further away than 400 yds usually allows one to stalk closer, at least most of the time.

I have ballistic turret on my scope on .375 H&H. Pretty good for longer shots (300 m). Used in combination with laser range finder of course.
https://forums.accuratereloadi...881025161#1881025161

Yes, sure, you can use holdover, but you are free to choose. There is clear cross reticle with red dot.

For PCP air rifle, it is a must. Precise shooting small varmints at different ranges.
https://forums.accuratereloadi...6511043/m/4391067662

And of course it is a must for real longe range rifles.
https://forums.accuratereloadi...351/m/6461058072/p/2