I'm concidering getting a Ziess Diavari Victory 2.5-10x42 scope. Anybody think this unwise?

Save some money and buy a Burris or maybe try a Sightron, heard good things about them. German optics are highly overrated.

http://www.burrisoptics.com/signature.html

http://www.sightron.com/index.php?action=view_category&cat_id=1108935597

I would disagree with that. Once you've had high quality optics, it's hard to go back. Kinda like good scotch. Usher's Green Stripe will get you drunk, Johnny Walker Red ain't bad at all, but the Chivas Regal is mighty fine.

From a utility standpoint, the Chivas or the Zeiss isn't really worth it. The extra quality comes at a substantial cost premium, but that's the only way to get that level of performance.

Do you need that level of performance? Maybe not. But the real questions are do you want it and can you afford it? If you do and can, then go for it.

And I don't mean to bash the suggested Burris or Sightron scopes. In that price range, they are solid scopes. But if you are looking at Zeiss you are probably wanting much more.

LWD

quote:

I would disagree with that. Once you've had high quality optics, it's hard to go back.

Easy to go up the optics ladder.....hard to come back down. Agree with ya 100%. Burris has a well earned reputation for less than great customer service.....any optics forum will have service stories about burris. World of difference between a burris and a zeiss in optical quality and service after the sale if ever needed.

Dave

I have a Leupold LPS 2.5x10x45 w/ 30 mm tube I will sell you. PM me if interested.

+1 for LWD

The Zeiss glass you are referring to will be considerably better than the Sightron & night/day better than any Burris I have ever looked through. But yes...at a price...and I would agree on the diminishing returns--but only once you get into the "better" (read higher dollar) brands.

I am a Sightron fan though too...so it isn't just fanboy hype for euro optics. I have around seven varmint rifles that sport primarily Sightrons...as I cannot afford to plant euro scopes up on them. I think that they are a great value and have better glass than any of the other "mid-range" scopes I've used (leup, burris, nikon).

I doubt that you will have anyone slam the Dia--for anything other than price.

Truth be told, I don't need this scope. I have a VXIII 3.5-10x40 on my rifle now and it works great. It's more of a complete the package sort of thing. I've had this rifles action trued rechamberd to 280AI the whole nine yards so to speak. So in my warped mind it needs a glass to finish the project. Sort of a ultimit Deer rifle for the area I hunt. It's a Beretta Mato btw.

What LWD said.....

Don

quote:

Truth be told, I don't need this scope.

And I didn't need the Swaro I put on my .30-06, but I did it anyway. That rifle fit me perfectly and on a good day puts three of my handloads into the same hole. When in doubt, I grab it. I had great confidence in the gun and wanted to have even more confidence in it. So I bit the $$$ bullet.

Also, a Burris or Sightron wouldn't really be an upgrade from a VXIII. You need to step up to the Euro stuff to get an appreciably better scope. Excerpt for perhaps the Nikon Monarch.

LWD

quote:

Originally posted by 12FVSS260:

quote:

I would disagree with that. Once you've had high quality optics, it's hard to go back.

Easy to go up the optics ladder.....hard to come back down. Agree with ya 100%. Burris has a well earned reputation for less than great customer service.....any optics forum will have service stories about burris. World of difference between a burris and a zeiss in optical quality and service after the sale if ever needed.

Dave

Beg to differ, Ive compared Burris sigs with the Zeiss, Burris is/was better in my tests which were done at dusk, Burris being the brighter, optical equal to any scope out there. And they're(Burris) CS has changed for the better from what I hear.

And what zeiss scopes have you owned and compared to the burris signiture? You are probably the only poster I've seen to this point try to convince anyone that burris scopes are even close to the zeiss line. Burris service if it improved today......would be many years winning back the service reputation they stomped a mud hole in with many customers....myself included.....for many years.

sorry but you won't convince anyone with real life comparison experience between zeiss and burris that the burris scopes are better, they aren't close.

Dave

Sorry Jay I have to admit while Burris are OK. I'll take my S&B Zenith's and Zeiss' any day. I've had all brands of optics, and sightons and Burris are not even in the same league, heck they are not even the same sport!

The new Leupolds VX-VII are good and so is the LPS line. They are close!

Heck The bushnell elite's are better than burris.

Ed

quote:

Heck The bushnell elite's are better than burris.

Absolutely correct! Its OK Jay........somebodies gotta love em......I sure don't.....

quote:

Burris being the brighter, optical equal to any scope out there.

Sorry Jay, if you have actual experience and results with something you are Never the victim of debate attempting to convince you of the opposite. If you really believe its equal to or better than anything out there....you can save a lot on your scope purchases.....but I've looked thru some of the better scopes out there and to my eyes, it wasn't even a close comparison with burris.....

Dave

You guys can waste your money on whatever you want, Ill waste mine on Burris, hehe

I,m with LWD on this one, I bought my first European scope (IOR) and You can't go back. I was looking at a Sightron I was going to put on an '06 last night. I put the iron sights back on until I can buy at least the equivalent of the IOR. The scotch analogy was a good one too

gary,
if you have the cash buy your dream scope.
you'll be much happer. garr...un..teeeeed ,
regards n keep us posted

No, I don't see anything unwise about buying one of the best all-around riflescopes on the planet! The only problem would be the green envy on all your friends faces. Were I able to chose one scope for all my needs, that would probably be on the short list. I say buy it and enjoy the hell out of it!

I have had a Zeiss Diavari V 2.5x10x50 T* for 10 years now. It is a wonderful scope. I also have a Burris Black Diamond 4x16x50, 2 Kahles 4x12x52 MultiZero's, a Kahles 3.5x10x50 AH and a Zeiss Conquest 3x9x50. In addition I reload for other rifles that have assorted scopes to include Leupolds, Nikons and even some Simmons.

Without a doubt the clearest and brightest scope I have and have looked through is the Zeiss 3x9x50 Conquest. You can see the ragged edges of the holes in the paper at 100 yards. Next I would group the Zeiss Diavari and the Kahles MultiZero's. Then the older Kahles AH and the couple of Nikon's I have looked through. Then the Burris Black Diamond and one Burris Signature on a rifle I have occasion to look through (must caustion that the Burris Signature had the most parallax I have ever seen at 12 power with no parallax adjustment). Then the Simmons scopes of which one was actually pretty good, an older Aetec 3.8x12x44. Last (and I wish it weren't so) are the Leupolds, from VariX II to VXIII's.

If you want the scope to add to the showpiece qualities of the rifle the the Zeiss Diavari you are talking about is the best along with certain other very expensive scopes like some Swarovski's, Schmidt & Benders, Nightforces and USA scopes.

But if you want the best hunting scope as far as clarity and light gathering for the money, then get a Zeiss Conquest 3x9x40 or 4.5x14x44.

JMHO

Interesting opinions woods, I have several conquests and consider them to be in the upper optics level myself. Find the 4200 elites to be just a notch less but not much, the better zeiss and kahles models are always touted as being superior to the conquests in glass and coatings. However the ones I've gotten a hold of to actually look through haven't seemed better to my eyes. I do figure everyones eyes are different and it takes acuity and contrast charts under equal light conditions to really see the more subtle differences as the law of diminishing returns really starts to kick in. Color correction also really can effect the percieved image our eyes see when looking thru various optics. Glad to see I'm not alone with my perceptions however.....

Dave

When we join the Optics Forum, we have a tendency to aspire to ultimate perfection. Hell, we are just gonna go knock down a deer.
Instead of the 1600 to 2 grand for the Zeiss; I'd buy an old 4 power Redfield off eBay, and take the remaining 1500 and buy me another old Model 70.........Let's see....I don't have a .257 Roberts yet........... Grant.

Must admit, I don't find any of the American or Asian scopes commonly available here to be in the same class (barely in the same world) with the reputable European rifle scopes, including the Eastern European ones.

Am NOT suggesting the Asian companies could not build equal scopes, just that they don't generally do so, at least for the North American market. Doubt the American companies still even have the ability to do so, and that includes Leupold. (Lenses are only part of a scope, you Beaverton fans.)

For me personally, though I have owned most of the different European brands, I find myself doing more and more of what Old Model 70 suggests...'cept I don't buy anything at eBay any more. Why pay $85 plus shipping for an old, possibly broken, Weaver sight-unseen at eBay, when I can get a used scope of better quality for half the money at the local gun shows and look through it before I buy?

Guess my needs are not as severe as they once were.

Edited to add: Am speaking of hunting scopes. Have seen very few scopes from any country that will exceed the Nightforce from Lewiston, Idaho for certain tactical uses. But I would not use a Nightforce for a huntng scope. Around here we call them "Labs"...about the same size, colour and weight as a Black Lab.and just about as handy to attach to the top of a lightweight hunting rifle you may carry a long way up steep mountain - Big Grin -

I buy the best optics I can afford. I'd rather have a 50 dollar rifle and a 100 dollar scope to hunt with, rather than the other way around. Usually a cheap rifle shoots good enough, but a bad scope you will miss everytime.

I guess everyones different. Just my ramblings!

Ed

quote:

Am NOT suggesting the Asian companies could not build equal scopes, just that they don't generally do so, at least for the North American market. Doubt the American companies still even have the bility to do so, and that includes Leupold. (Lenses are only part of a scope, you Beaverton fans.)

This is a very interesting point. Even Nikon Monarchs, IMHO, don't touch even a Zeiss Conquest much less the higher end Euro stuff. But, Lexus makes a heckuva a car, even now to the point of better quality in the build than Mercedes and BMW. So why aren't they doing it????

LWD

While the Conquest is a fine scope, I didnt see any advantage(Re:EQUAL) in the optics over a 3-9 Signature, both were clear, offered outstanding definition, etc, etc. But, when I tested these same scopes at dusk the Burris was a brighter scope, offering more usable light after the sun goes down., if you care to hunt after dusk, which they do in Germany from what I understand. You guys really need to do more side by side testing to proclaim these german scopes "King of the world"!! They are not worth what you pay for them, but pay if you must. For my eyes, Im totally sold, and committed to Burris since they proved to me they can stand shoulder to shoulder with the best europeon scopes out there. Course, if you read some of the scope tests in I believe it was "Outdoor Life" a few years ago, youd know where Im coming from.

This is a lab test, for what its worth.

http://forums.basspro.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=001480

Hey Jay now that burris is beretta owned does that make them......euro? Least they moved the turrets towards the center of the tubes.......You're OK in my book though...every scope brand needs its champion.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by 12FVSS260:
Hey Jay now that burris is beretta owned and the scope making facility is moved from Colorado to the Philippines what does that make them......euro or asian....maybe eurasian? Least they moved the turrets towards the center of the tubes.......You're OK in my book though...every scope brand needs its champion.

Dave

I know some of their scopes are made overseas, some of the FFII line. Are you saying the whole kit and kaboodle is going over there? Jay

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:
I buy the best optics I can afford. I'd rather have a 50 dollar rifle and a 100 dollar scope to hunt with, rather than the other way around. Usually a cheap rifle shoots good enough, but a bad scope you will miss everytime.

I guess everyones different. Just my ramblings
Ed

I could not disagree with the thought behind this. I just buy the older ones so I can keep adding to my extensive assemblage of older rifles, and put contemporary rifles and scopes together..

Jay perhaps I'm working on bad intel....waiting right now to hear from the author of this info. will hold off posting till I'm sure.

Dave

I like this kind of thinking.

quote:

Originally posted by jjmp:
gary,
if you have the cash buy your dream scope.
you'll be much happer. garr...un..teeeeed ,
regards n keep us posted

This is the way I'm going to go.

quote:

Originally posted by Clayman:
No, I don't see anything unwise about buying one of the best all-around riflescopes on the planet! The only problem would be the green envy on all your friends faces. Were I able to chose one scope for all my needs, that would probably be on the short list. I say buy it and enjoy the hell out of it!

I'm already green Gary.....and you haven't even bought it yet

Couple more months and I'll buy it.

quote:

Originally posted by 12FVSS260:
Jay its already moved, burris is not producing scopes stateside anymore.

Dave

Dave, Are they feedin' ya some locoweed in Maine, or just plain Bulllshit? They did not move the whole factory overseas, had to call ya on that misinformation. Jay

Well the locoweed is of some legend up here.....not that I would actually know.......perhaps I'm going on bad intel so I've removed my statement till the posters who have made this statement give me some facts. Its been posted on several optics forums but may take some time to verify. Till than we'll just go with them being euro owned...a fact that has been confirmed. Just like swaro and kahles doing their reported split the otherday.....sometimes you don't know if its true right away.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by 12FVSS260:
Well the locoweed is of some legend up here.....not that I would actually know.......perhaps I'm going on bad intel so I've removed my statement till the posters who have made this statement give me some facts. Its been posted on several optics forums but may take some time to verify. Till than we'll just go with them being euro owned...a fact that has been confirmed. Just like swaro and kahles doing their reported split the otherday.....sometimes you don't know if its true right away.

Dave

I have their phone number if youd like to verify that with Larry, the CS guy.

quote:

Originally posted by 12FVSS260:
Well the locoweed is of some legend up here.....not that I would actually know.......perhaps I'm going on bad intel so I've removed my statement till the posters who have made this statement give me some facts. Its been posted on several optics forums but may take some time to verify. Till than we'll just go with them being euro owned...a fact that has been confirmed. Just like swaro and kahles doing their reported split the otherday.....sometimes you don't know if its true right away.

Dave

The email I just received from Burris.

No sir. All our Euro Diamond, Black Diamond, Signature Select, Short Mag and LER scope are made in Greeley CO.

Burris growth has outpaced it’s internal manufacturing capacity. This has forced Burris to expand it’s manufacturing capacity beyond the limitations of the Greeley Colorado Burris factory. Burris recently began making some of our 3X-9X-40mm Fullfield II riflescopes in a factory in the far east. As such Burris has removed the printing on the scope which used to say MADE IN USA.

Burris could have expanded it’s manufacturing capabilities in the USA, however competitive price points Burris has tried to maintain in the $200 range for the 3X-9X-40mm Fullfield II compared to imported brands like Nikon Buckmasters and compared to Leupold VXI, both of which contain far fewer quality features than the Fullfield II, also caused Burris to evaluate lesser cost manufacturing.

The 3X-9X-40mm Fullfield II scopes are currently being made both domestically and abroad. Every single component and every specification is identical between domestic and foreign manufacture. Burris monitors assembly in both plants, and even furnishes some US parts to the foreign plant. In our plant in Greeley Colorado, Burris 100% final inspects every scope for over 20 quality control criteria. Any and all servicing or warranty work that may be required will continue to be done at the Burris Greeley Colorado facility.

You can be assured that irrespective of manufacturing facility, every Fullfield II riflescope is an original Burris design and made to the very high quality standards and specifications that are synonymous with the Burris brand. All scopes of course continue to carry the Burris Forever Warranty.

Yes I just did a google of burris and basically found the same thing....they have a plant in the philipines that manufactures scopes at lower labor rates. All scopes are shipped out of the Greeley location. My bad....but I swear not the locoweed

Dave

Actually,..I am with Jay on his recommendation. I have compared a Zeiss Diavari and the Conquest line to the Burris Signatures, and I can't find any reason the Zeiss costs so much more,...oh yeah,..it says zeiss on it

I think the Signature series is better than vxiii scopes, and that is why I switched my leupys to Burris. Also,...I have sent 2 scopes back to Burris (broken when I bought them used,..and knew that ahead of time) and they were repaired and sent back inside 2 weeks,..often with new turret caps, lens caps, etc for free. Don't know about heresay,..but my real world experience with Burris is that they are top shelf as is their CS.

When you compare prices,..both IOR and Nightforce beat the crap out of anything zeiss has to offer. I have yet to see what all the rage about zeiss is all about,..everytime I look through one,..even at dusk,..I am still wondering where the other half of the price tag is

There is one thing you guy's have not talked about, and that is the value you get when you buy the finer optics. I have a 3X9 Zeiss I bought 22 years ago for about $300. I can easily sell that scope today for $500-$600. I have a Redfield I paid $200 for, that I would be lucky to resale for $50. When you buy quality optic's they will appreciate in value. When you buy decent optic's(Burris), you might hold your money, or have a slight increase, but definitely not masssive appreciation. I bought an A-line Swarovski about 5 years ago for about $750. I turned down $1100 for it the other day. I have a Burris Signature Select I bought at the same time, I just sold it for a $50 loss.

So not only will your optic's appreciate, but you will be able to enjoy them all the time.

If you buy the best, it can almost be considered an investment. Now there is a way to justify it to your wife. Especially when she just paid $100 for a dress that she will sell at the flea market in five years for a quarter. Tom.