OK,All the years I played with guns,I still have to ask this...any of you ever tested side by side at dark same scopes(such as Zeiss mentioned above)for brightness...Can the Human eye utilize the benefits of the larger and larger Objective?(I would think so,but.....?)
(Zeiss has a 3-10x44,3-10x50 and a 3-12x56)

The question does not turn on only one variable. Higher magnification needs a larger objective to have the same size exit pupil. The exit pupil is the objective divided by magnification. It's discussed here. But basically it's the size of the light coming out of the scope. Bigger is better in low light conditions. This is why European hunters shooting boar at night use things like 8x56 scopes. In relatively bright conditions, it's not so important.

Maybe Stonecreek or Bobby Tomek will weigh in on this. They know much more than I do.

LWD

In The Fatherland we hunt at night. Not pitch black 'cause you've got to have some light to see or you'll just have to pack it in and go home - period. Light reflected off lower cloud layers, moonlight (also depends on the Moon's position (angle) in the night sky, snow all make or break the amount of light required to make a telling shot. Also depends on if you're in deep forest or sitting edges of fields, etc, too.

I've got most of the brand name scopes and some others as well, S&B, Zeiss, Swarovski, Docter & Kahles.

42mm's don't cut it for serious nighttime work you may get by with a 7x42 Kahles on the edge of a forest overlooking a field.

50mm work but somehow my 2.5-10x48 Docter always manages to get cranked down to 7X by the end of a nights work as does another older Zeiss 2.5-10x52 (funny that ..... ?).

56mm's IMO definately offfer better light but the old monster Zeiss 3-12x56 always ends up on 8X at the end of a hard nights squinting, too.

That's why I have a Zeiss 8x56 on my main night time rifle (9.3x62).

Lots of snow this weekend, and late moon, too - we'll be out pretty much all night tomorrow, Saturday & Sunday - Waidmansheil.

A lot of really good info here. I love AR because this place has the answears.

LWD and Gerry have a really good point and understanding of the science of night optics. It's all a factor of magnafication balanced with the size of the objective lens to get the most light gathering potential.

Low light scopes are most popular in Europe. The European makers as mention by Gerry strive to offer a product that will excell at night.
They normally shoot for an exit pupel of 7mm. This is considered the greatest amount that can be absorbed by the human eye.

To achive this at 4X you need a 32mm objective lens,at 6x you need 42 mm, at 8x you need a 56mm objective lens. In low light higher magnafication is also a factor in gathering the image through the lens of your scope.

This means that although you will get a the maximum of 7mm exit pupil with a 4x scope with a 32 mm objective you will still see more from an 8x scope that delivers a 7mm exit pupil and as discribed before this is achived by a 56mm objective lens.

Now here's the practicle sidenote. In my expiriance you have two considerations to keep in mind. First I have noticed that while useing a scope at night most of the time the problem is not making out the image or outline of your game animal but it is seeing the reticle.

This is why the german optic makers designed the #1 reticle with its heavy side post. Much of this has changed with the advent of illumenated reticles. Nowdays when you loose sight of that reticle a flip of the switch and it becomes the britest thing in the woods.

The other consideration is as my friend Rudi a forester in Bavaria says. It dos'nt make sence to have a scope that will show you more than your binoculars. For his purposes he must evaluate what it is that he might be shooting at before hand. The target must conform to the abschuss. If there is'nt enough light to count the points etc. then your not going to make the shot.

There are exceptions to this like pigs or foxes on a potatoe field but still with an ilumenated reticle I think you can drop the old standard of 56mm down to 42mm.

Ak-s,

quote:

as my friend Rudi a forester in Bavaria says

Would that be Rudi Trinker, per chance?

To continue with this thread now that I've had a day or two to further comtemplate the original query.

Yes, IMO a 56mm objective is a better scope for nightime use for my eyes.

Then there's the difference between The Fatherland with nighttime hunting versus Stateside hunting and the optimal objective lens size.

In the vast majority of the States I've hunted in where legal shooting time is +/- @ 1 hour prior to sunrise or sunset a 42mm may suffice perfectly. In some states with nightitme varmint hunting (although in some the use of artificial light (i.e., spotlights) is allowed) a 48, 50, 52 or 56mm objective could perhaps be used to better effect.

As Ak-s said; the Germans used to (modern manufacturing & marketing have changed this somewhat) make 7x42 binos to compliment 6x42 scopes and 8x56 or 9x63mm binos w/8x56mm scopes. Still very much in vogue today, too as useful equipment. As an example, for Roe Deer the 7x42 & 6x42 bino/scope combo is a perfect setup because the limitations in visibility is perfect. If you can't see to count the points on a Buck's head with a 7x42 bino it is time to pack it in & go home. For this reason shooting Red, Fallow, Sika Stags & Roe Deer at night is illegal because you cannot adequately determine & assess what you've seeing & shooting at (the Harvest Plan (=abschußplan) wins every time!).

Shooting Wild Boar (and Foxes) on the other hand is accomplished mostly by shooting in a dark(er) grey field (background) at black silhouettes - you don't have to count points but do have to establish, age, sex, size (there's some Voodoo & Black Magic involved here as well) but this isn't a treatsie on game identification, rather optics. The optical tools developed by the Tuetons to do their style of hunting here in The Fatherland have been carefully developed and work superbly for the task at hand.

THANKS GUYS! HENCE,"BIGGER IS BRIGHTER"

quote:

Originally posted by SAFARIKID:
THANKS GUYS! HENCE,"BIGGER IS BRIGHTER"

Nope. I don't think that is what anyone said.

In a nutshell, whatever lens diameter yields a 7mm exit pupil will make the image as bright as it can possibly be (all things being equal). And 7mm only counts if you are fairly young, have never smoked, and have not otherwise damaged your eyes' iris capability to dialate to 7mm. If you are over 50, have smoked, or have just plain started going to seed like many of us, your maximum pupil dialation may not be more than 5 or 6mm. In which case a proportionally smaller objective does the same thing for you.

Now, this may come as surprise, but when two objects are illuminated to the same degree, the larger of the two is easier to see. WOW! Betcha never thought of that! That is why you get better low light definition from an 8x56 with its 7mm exit pupil than from a 4x32 with its 8mm exit pupil. The sight picture is just as bright with the 4x32, but the objects in it are smaller. Try reading some 8-point print in a darkened room, then try some 16-point type by comparison and you'll instantly grasp this concept.

If your scope is a variable (and has respectable optics), you will get the maximum low light definition from cranking the power up to the highest level that still allows its exit pupil to match your own. Let's say you have a 3-9x40 scope, and your pupil capacity is 6mm. Divide 40mm by 6 and you get a power setting of 6.6X as your optimum. At a lower magnification setting your exit pupil is larger than your eye pupil, so the extra light falls meaninglessly on part of your eye that can't see. At a higher magnification setting the exit pupil is smaller than your eye, so the image appears less well illuminated.

Here is one caveat to all of this: Many scopes may have a lens of X diameter, but their construction does not allow light from the outer portion of the objective lens to pass through the scope. So, you might have an El Cheapo 50mm scope which only has an effective objective lens diameter of, maybe, 44mm. In that case instead of acheiving a 7mm exit pupil at about 7.15X, you actually have to crank it down to around 6.25X to have your 7mm exit pupil. The effective versus the physical size of the lens can be very important.

quote:

Originally posted by SAFARIKID:
THANKS GUYS! HENCE,"BIGGER IS BRIGHTER"

I do understand,but it sounded good!