Thank you all again for your insights. After much teeth nashing, I bought a used Swarovski AV 4-12x50 with 4A reticle. The local gunshop where I buy and sell sime stuff had taken it in trade. Apparently, it's owner decided he needed the TDS reticle instead of the 4A. His change of mind was my gain. Now to find some time to get it zeroed..........

LWD


I have decided to rescope my .30-06 with a 30mm tube 4a reticle optic. But I cannot decide which of several to choose from and would appreciate everyone's considered opinions.

The rifle is a rather heavy 1983 vintage 700ADL that fits me perfectly and shoots one hole groups with a 168 TSX and 60 grains of RL19 if I do my part. It was acquired used but not abused and has had a trigger job. I have developed great confidence in this rifle. It currently wears a Leupold VXI 3-9x40 that is a very serviceable scope but not in the class I want.

Since it will be used mostly in stands, weight is not a big issue. I am mostly looking for a high quality optic giving excellent low light performance. Since it's on the heavy side to begin with and a lot of my hunting opportunities will be near dusk and dawn, the 30mm tube and 4a reticle seem the way to go.

Here are the choices I have narrowed this down to:

Nikon Monarch Gold factory refurb 2.5-10x50. $499 from SWFA's sample list.

Nikon Monarch Gold factory refurb 2.5-10x56. $599 from SWFA's sample list.

Zeiss Conquest 3-12x56. $819 from theopticzone.com

Kahles 3-12x56. $1258 from the local gun store where I trade often.

I am leaning toward the Zeiss Conquest for the best tradeoff of price v. performance. Kahles is an excellent scope and my local guy would probably give me a small discount and/or trade stuff for it, I'm not sure it's 50% better than the Zeiss. On the other hand, the refurbed Monarch Golds are a great deal, and I have been very happy with all my Nikon scopes, but if I am going to bite the bullet and spend some money, then I feeling like I should go up a notch.

I think I've answered my own question here, but does anyone have any thoughts? Have I missed an obvious candidates?

Thanks,

LWD

Of the ones that you listed the Zeiss IMHO.................

Check out this guys list of sale items.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php...73/page/1#Post774473

I would be tempted by the Zeiss Diavari 2.5-10x50

His conquest is cheaper than the one you list by over $100.

LWD, Of the scopes you've mentioned the one you want is the Kahles since it's the only one with a 1st focal plane retical. When you try and zoom in a bit in low light the 1st focal plane reticle makes a huge difference. That's why they are popular in Europe where they often hunt at night.

Also the Kahles is quite a bit lighter at 19 someodd ounces, the Nikon is 24+ and the Zeiss Conquest is 25+. Weight might not be your 1st issue but why not have lighter if you can?

Personally I'd reccommend a Swaro 2.5-10x56 or 3-12x50 because they are optically better than any you've mentioned and lighter yet at 18+ and 16+ oz. The Zeiss Diavari's are lighter and better optically then the Conquests and would also be top of the line. IIRC some of the Diavari's are also 1st focal plane also............................DJ

I might be wrong,but arn`t the Conquests made with a 1" Tube??????I also think the The Kahles is a mighty fine Scope.They are reasonably priced also.

Thank you all for your replies.

Olbiker, the Conquests are 1" tubes except for the 3-12x56, which is 30mm.

djpaintles, thank you. You make a good point. I had assumed they all were first focal plane scopes. The Kahles weight difference is a good bit---almost a 1/3 pound. I've always considered Swarovski out of my budget. Hmmmmm.......

LWD

Here's my .30-06 and it seems to fit your bill : Sauer 202 + Swaro 1,5-6x42, 4A reticle in EAW swingout mount :

NB.: spare bbl. is in 7x64

I'd take a look at Nightforce scopes as well. All have lighted reticles, all have target knobs and all have 30 mm tubes.

I just installed a 3x12x50 Schmidt & Bender on my 3006 and am very impressed.

Schmidt und Bender is also an excellent choice. I forgot to mention them because they are above his price range, but you might find a used one.
Their lighted reticle is fantastic and perfect for a "low-light" gun.
Optically I couldn't tell you which is the best between a Zeiss Diavari, Swarovski PH, and a Schmidt und Bender Zenith, they are all superb. I haven't compared them side by side with the new Swaro Z-6 yet.......................DJ

Please feel free to give me a call to go over some AR member pricing. BTW, we have as new show pieces, some of which were never even out of the box on the Zeiss Conquest 3-12x56 @ $679.99 http://www.cameralandny.com/optics/zeiss.pl?page=zeissconquest521470

Gentlemen, you have me thinking about spending even more money!!! When my wife complains, I'll give her your numbers!

I am curious about one thing. No one suggested a Nikon. They're not in the same league as the European optics, but at the price as refurbs, they strike me as an excellent value.

Is there anything to look for if buying used???

Thanks again,

LWD

Do you mean you haven't bought the Zeiss from Doug for $680 yet? I somewhat prefer a couple other scopes but that seems like an awesome price.

Occasionally you can find used Swaro 3-12x50 PH's for under a $1000. I bought a Used S&B 3-12x50 Flashdot that depending on what the attatched rifle is worth was a very good deal. It would be woth checking with Doug. I would also check with Euroopticsltd and SWFA (thesamplelist.com) for used stuff.
Used High End optics are for me a real bargain. So what if they have a ring mark, I'll consider them a $500 badge of wisdom. They are going to have ringmarks as soon as I mount them anyway.

As far as the Nikon's go they felt heavy as a tank to me and just not as proven as the others. They looked good optically if not quite as good as the big 3. They might be really good scopes but why did they need to be refurbished????.............................DJ

Well, I've worked myself into a fervor for a 4a reticle and, if I read Doug's website correctly, those are No. 8 reticles. But, yes, you're right, the price is amazing, and I ought to shut up, be happy, and adjust to the reticle for that price.

Here's what Doug posted in another thread about Nikon refurbs:

"Nikon defines a “Refurbished Product†as any product that has been returned by a retail partner/authorized Nikon dealer. Once the product is returned, Nikon conducts a rigorous evaluation of the appearance and all product functions to make sure that the item meets their quality standards. Your product will function identically to a brand-new Nikon product, however it is possible for a reconditioned product to have a scratch or blemish on the surface, not the optics. As with all Nikon Sports Optics it is covered by Nikons $19.95 No Fault Lifetime Coverage. If it is ever in need of service, for whatever reason, Nikon will repair or replace it for $19.95 which covers the cost of paperwork and return shipping."

So I guess they may or may not have had much done to them.

That deal from Doug is too sweet to pass up.


I'd like to ask you a question about your 30mm tube need. You said you need a scope for early and late shooting. There's often a misconception that a 30mm main tube is "brighter" but, that's simply false and a myth by many.

There are many very bright scopes on the market in your price range.

The reason I brought this up is that I often do load development for quite a few folks and some think they have to buy the largest objective with the 30mm tube to get a "brighter" scope but, It's just not true. You can take top of the line scopes with 1" and 30mm tubes and large 56mm obj as well as 42-44mm obj and I'll be very surprised if you can tell a difference late in the evening in a test.

IMO the only advantage to a 30mm tube is more adjustment for extreme long range shooting.

Good Luck

Reloader

Well, the consensus seems to be maybe I need to adjust to the No. 8 reticle. The deal is really good.

I was leaning toward the 30mm tube because that seemed to me to be what was the standard for the large objective lens scope. The extra adjustment is NOT needed as the load in that gun I would not shoot beyond 350 yards for bullet performance reasons, I doubt I would take a shot beyond 250 yards absent ideal conditions, and I cannot shoot beyond 200 yards at my current hunting lease simply because the growth and vegetation do not offer shots longer than that. We had to work to set up a 200 yard distance for target shooting and sighting in. So the extra adjustment range from the 30mm tube is not at all necessary.

And I have to admit that I thought there was an optical benefit to the 30mm tube. If it's mechanical only, I may need to rethink the whole thing.

Thank you,

LWD

I have had & got rid of several 30mm S&B scopes. I like the size & balance of a 1" scope. My favorite scopes are 1. German zeiss 3x9, 2. Zeiss conquest 3.5x10 4a crosshairs & 3. Swar. 3x10 4a crosshairs.

I have & use Nikon 3x9 & 2x7 Monarchs on my second tier rifles they work well & for deer are a better buy than the high price scopes. You could have your rifle put in a good Brown Precision stock for the difference.

There isn't supposed to be an optical advantage to a 30mm tube but I've got 1" and 30mm tube scopes from the same manufacturer and I can see better through the 30mm scopes.
It is easer to manufacture larger lenses to better resolution than smaller ones. But I suspect that they might use better grades of glass in the 30mm's because they can afford too at the higher prices they command.
There's not much difference between an Zeiss and a 4a reticle. Mainly it just has a bar up top too. It should perform equally well in low light to the same scope with a 4a.
Again if at all possible look through both to see for yourself.......................DJ

I would not buy the Swaro 6 series yet. Although they appear to be mighty good scopes, the word is out here that Swarovski is still in the process of refining the optics and mechanics of this series.

Over here in Europe, Schmidt&Bender has become the first choice for many that can afford to buy them. Zeiss still has the name, but they cut corners the last few years. (plastic parts, limited warranty) S&B is a small firm that only produces riflescopes. That is why they can't afford to build anything else than the very best high en
d quality.

It seems to me that you are looking at some of the scopes to make yourself "feel good" about your choice.

For a 200yard maximum shooting distance with a 30-06
I'd seriously suggest some other scopes that you've overlooked...

The Bushnell Elite series scopes particularly their 4200
prices are competetive and you can get the 30mm tube you seem to want.

Even if you don't go for their "gimmick" Firefly reticle they seem to be very good scopes, particularly for the money, but just objectively they are very good scopes.

Do remember that there have been significant advances in materials (Lens crystal as well as coatings) and manufacturing technique (even if only the measuring tools to detect flaws) over the past 20 years, sufficient advances that in a direct competetion between a 20year old name brand scope and a shiny new bargain scope the high end name brand scope will frequently lose hands down.

But that is not to even imply that the high end scopes haven't benefited from the same advances...
The questions is can you tell the difference?

In optics like everything else there are diminishing returns, the question is how much money do you "need" to pour into that desire for that extra 1/10th of 1%?

I'm not rushing out to buy any $99 rifle scopes
but the only way I'm spending a grand (or more)
on a scope is AFTER I've won the powerball

I will also say that the best scope I own at the moment
is a Cabela's "Alaskan Guide" scope, in particular a 6.5-20x44 scope that is on my Rem700-VSSF in 223Rem.
it is a FAR better scope (brightness, clarity and resolution) than the older leupold that was on my aged 25-06 Ruger

I spent three days at cabelas going through scopes in the magnification class I wanted (5-15x and 6-20x's) and settled on their house brand scope simply because the only scopes that had resolution and clarity as good or better were three to five times the money...

Note I'm 45minutes from Cabela's Hamburg store, so my running over there isn't a big deal....

AllanD

In the fading light on the last day of a $5,000 hunt you will see the worth of the $1000 scopes............................DJ

Bump to top with result.

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
That deal from Doug is too sweet to pass up.


I'd like to ask you a question about your 30mm tube need. You said you need a scope for early and late shooting. There's often a misconception that a 30mm main tube is "brighter" but, that's simply false and a myth by many.

There are many very bright scopes on the market in your price range.

The reason I brought this up is that I often do load development for quite a few folks and some think they have to buy the largest objective with the 30mm tube to get a "brighter" scope but, It's just not true. You can take top of the line scopes with 1" and 30mm tubes and large 56mm obj as well as 42-44mm obj and I'll be very surprised if you can tell a difference late in the evening in a test.

IMO the only advantage to a 30mm tube is more adjustment for extreme long range shooting.

Good Luck

Reloader

Right on!!
Good post.

Don