I just got to wondering, what little tricks do you guys have to ensure the reticle of your scope is level when you mount it?

I place the rifle with a bipod on a table that has been leveled with a 4 foot carpenter's level. Then I place the carpenter's level out to 100 yards and line up the reticle with the level as I tighten the rings. This requires that the front swivel stud be mounted true, if that is the case then this method works great.

EXD Engineering makes the best Verticle Reticle aligning tool I have seen or used. Brownells sells it as part number 289-100-000 for $40.00. The geometry of the tool makes it very easy to level the rifle and the scope together as a unit and to vertically align the reticle to the bore.

Another handy trick is to shine a strong flashlight into the objective lens so you get a “picture†of your reticle projected onto a wall where you have already created a vertical reference line with a plumb bob or a carpenters level.Then just rotate your scope to align the “picture†to the reference line.

One of the handiest tools for your shop are those little laser levels you can buy at just about any Home Depot. They have their own bubble level and once leveled you can project a level reference line[s] onto any wall or surface to use for aligning your reticle.

Hang a bottom-weighted thin rope or string out at 50 yards. Sit down with gun and use a rest. Assure rifle at level. Align vertical Xhair with rope in scope image. Tighten rings.

Ok, I see where you are going, I tend to use a preleveled window face or pane. But I wonder, how is the best way to ensure the gun is level and true in both the horizontal position and vertical position.
I like the use of bipods, but bipods are not going to be perfectly the same dimensions on each side. What do you think?

quote:

Originally posted by Croberts:
Ok, I see where you are going, I tend to use a preleveled window face or pane. But I wonder, how is the best way to ensure the gun is level and true in both the horizontal position and vertical position.
I like the use of bipods, but bipods are not going to be perfectly the same dimensions on each side. What do you think?

Take a look at the EXD device I mentioned. It will level both the rifle and the scope as a unit and then you can level the reticle using any level reference point you want to: A plumb bob line, a door frame, a laser line, etc. Unlike some other units this one does not require a flat area on the rifle or scope base in order to work.

I prefer to place the rifle on a solid rest and/or sand bags to do this, but Bi-pods like the Harris that have side to side tilting, locking adjustments will work also.

I've used the new midway double level system and it works OK, I also used the Stoney Point, the one that has two grids by the side of your scope, and even carpenters levels with laser levels shining on a wall. They all work well enough to get the scope on reasonably straight until I get to the range and adjust it to where it feels right. You can have it mechanically perfectly level but if you have to hold it in an uncomfortable position to shoot with it level how good is that?.................DJ

i do it very scientific. Look throuth the scope and if it seems cockeyed - turn the scope. Repeat several times

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
I've used the new midway double level system and it works OK, I also used the Stoney Point, the one that has two grids by the side of your scope, and even carpenters levels with laser levels shining on a wall. They all work well enough to get the scope on reasonably straight until I get to the range and adjust it to where it feels right. You can have it mechanically perfectly level but if you have to hold it in an uncomfortable position to shoot with it level how good is that?.................DJ

If your rifle isn’t level when you assume a shooting position your stock is not properly designed for you. Canted rifles/scopes are not conducive to accurate shooting...in my opinion.

To test how a reticle looks to my eye, I have two lines one vetical, tother horizontal on the garage wall, which were marked with a 3ft long level. I raise the rifle look through the scope, at the lowest magnification and adjust till the reticle lines up. It works ok and cost nothing.

I always had problems when screwing the rings tight. Scope is level to begin with but after the rings are tight the reticle is crooked. I have not had this problem with the burris rings with plastic cups. I think that may be a better mounting system and they also protect your scope form ring marks.

As with any procedure it is always helpful to fully understand what exactly you are trying to do...and why exactly it needs to be done.

If you level the reticle with the rifle off vertical (not level) then the bore is going to be pointing off to the opposite side of the cant and your shots are not going to go where you think they should in reference to your POA. Then you are going to end up having to make windage and elevation adjustments that would not be necessary if the rifle/scope/reticle were all in proper vertical alignment with each other.

I wish scope makers would etch a line across the top of the scope body, then etch a line on top of the rings, line these 2 up and you have your leveled scope every time

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
I wish scope makers would etch a line across the top of the scope body, then etch a line on top of the rings, line these 2 up and you have your leveled scope every time

AMEN!!!!!!!!

Or at least provide a small level flat spot at TDC so you can lay a machinist level on the damned things.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

If your rifle isn’t level when you assume a shooting position your stock is not properly designed for you. Canted rifles/scopes are not conducive to accurate shooting...in my opinion.

Gee I wonder how David Tubb managed to win 19 or so different rifle National Championships with all of his sites mounted canted! I've played with his personal rifle and if you hold the gun straight up and down you can't even see the sights.
I would prefer to have my sites perfectly level to the gun, and I'm learning how to make properly fitting rifles but no rifle fits Everyone. A couple degress of can't aren't enough to cause as much of a problem in a hunting rifle than a hard to aim rifle is............DJ

After I made the previous post I picked up a copy of the March/April 2006 "RifleShooter" magazine. It had an article by David Tubbs about rifle fit. It also had a picture from behind his Silhouette rifle. This rifle was so dominant in HP rifle Silhouette shooting out to 500 meters (547 yards - further than most should be hunting) that the NRA banned it. Here's the pic:



Now he does have the reticle level but the rifle sure aint!
Having a scope not level with the bore will cause some shot divergance, but not enough to worry about at normal hunting ranges as long as the cant isn't too extreme.................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

If your rifle isn’t level when you assume a shooting position your stock is not properly designed for you. Canted rifles/scopes are not conducive to accurate shooting...in my opinion.

Gee I wonder how David Tubb managed to win 19 or so different rifle National Championships with all of his sites mounted canted! I've played with his personal rifle and if you hold the gun straight up and down you can't even see the sights.
I would prefer to have my sites perfectly level to the gun, and I'm learning how to make properly fitting rifles but no rifle fits Everyone. A couple degress of can't aren't enough to cause as much of a problem in a hunting rifle than a hard to aim rifle is............DJ

Well, if you can assume shooting positions in the field as stable and repeatable as David Tubb does in matches then I guess you’re right it wouldn’t make much difference.

The point being that “IF†(and that’s a big if) you can hold the EXACT amount of cant each and every time you shoulder your rifle (like David Tubb does on the firing line) you can compensate for the cant with the adjustments of your scope.

If none of this matters to you don’t worry about it. Just toss that scope on there any old way and fire away!

I can't imagine that being a very sturdy mounting system, It looks like a drunk drug dealer with nothing to do mounted that scope.

I for one like my scope mounted as sturdy as possible, I don't care if the rings are heavy. I just want a rock solid mounting system, that will eliminate any unknown problems

Now there’s a real practical hunting rig if I ever saw one!

If you have a scientific calculator and a ballistic table for your ammunition you can easily calculate how much the cant will move the impact to the side of your aiming point.

Enter the cant angle in degrees and press “SIN.†Then multiply the drop of your bullet in inches at a given range by that number.

Oh,and don’t forget that you will also have to factor that distance in to any windage adjustments or holds you have to make on the day.

Seems to me like allot of math to do in your head while your deer is running off into the brush.

Thank you, I think I will continue to level my rifle, scope and reticle all together as a unit.

Obviously the gun in the picture is a extreme example, it's not a hunting rifle it's a now illegal for silhouette competition chin gun setup, but it does prove a point.
Also like I said I would prefer to have everything dead level and still fit correctly. All I am getting at is that a couple degrees cant isn't going to affect hunting accuracy enough to worry about if that's what it takes to make the gun easier to shoot accuratly in the field. Bullets don't travel perfectly straight out of the bore in the horizontal plane anyway - look up gyroscopic spin precession etc..
The moral is to get them as level as possible but you don't have to be to obsessive about it..............DJ

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
Obviously the gun in the picture is a extreme example, it's not a hunting rifle it's a now illegal for silhouette competition chin gun setup, but it does prove a point.
Also like I said I would prefer to have everything dead level and still fit correctly. All I am getting at is that a couple degrees cant isn't going to affect hunting accuracy enough to worry about if that's what it takes to make the gun easier to shoot accuratly in the field. Bullets don't travel perfectly straight out of the bore in the horizontal plane anyway - look up gyroscopic spin precession etc..
The moral is to get them as level as possible but you don't have to be to obsessive about it..............DJ

DJ,

I’ve always been a big believer in letting everyone have their own opinion...but not their own set of facts to back it up with.

The horizontal drift caused by the spin of the bullet doesn’t become a factor except at very extreme ranges, so that’s a pretty bad example to use.

You are correct that a slight cant at shorter distances doesn’t make allot of difference as long as the target is large enough to absorb the error.

Do you also have your iron sights mounted off to one side so they will be level when you cant your rifle so its comfortable for you?

Call me picky, but I’ve just always believed that a rifle and scope should be set up properly to be level when you shoulder the weapon.

If a different way works for you, so be it.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

DJ,

I’ve always been a big believer in letting everyone have their own opinion...but not their own set of facts to back it up with.

[QUOTE]

Facts are either Facts or they are not, they aren't my set or anyone elses.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rick 0311:

The horizontal drift caused by the spin of the bullet doesn’t become a factor except at very extreme ranges, so that’s a pretty bad example to use.

You are correct that a slight cant at shorter distances doesn’t make allot of difference as long as the target is large enough to absorb the error.

Actually gyroscopic spin drift makes a bullet hit very slightly higher in a cross wind. And a slightly canted reticle might make a bullet hit lower at extended ranges, the point is that both are neglible at hunting ranges.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

Do you also have your iron sights mounted off to one side so they will be level when you cant your rifle so its comfortable for you?

Actually that's exactly what a lot of the top High Power shooters do with their Iron sites. I wouldn't on a hunting rifle though.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

Call me picky, but I’ve just always believed that a rifle and scope should be set up properly to be level when you shoulder the weapon.

That's the point exactly! You should be able to close your eyes, shoulder your weapon as comfortably and naturally as possible and when you open your eyes be looking at a level set of crosshairs. The rub is that for a lot of people to do that they are going to have to have a slight cant in their scope.
Read the article by Tubbs in the current RifleShooter magazine. He is a far, far more accomplished rifleman than I am and maybe he can explain it better to you...............DJ

quote:

Actually gyroscopic spin drift makes a bullet hit very slightly higher in a cross wind. And a slightly canted reticle might make a bullet hit lower at extended ranges, the point is that both are neglible at hunting ranges.

Seems to me that when we were training our chopper door gunners we had to teach them that bullets would strike low (or high) depending on which side of the chopper they were shooting out of. Sort of like the difference between a curve ball and a screwball. So, bullet could hit lower (or higher) at extended range, depending on whether it is a LH or RH twist, and whether the wind is a L or R crosswind.

Well, if you guys want to get that technical I suppose that next we should start discussing how close to the equator we are shooting and whether or not we are shooting east to west, north to south, or visa-versa.

David Tubb also sells adjustable buttplates that adjust for drop, pull, comb height, and angle of the stock. Why doesn’t he just use one of his own damned adjustable buttplates and get his stock to be level when he shoulders his rifle?

Look, obviously I’m not going to change your mind, and I can guaran-damn-tee you that you aren’t going to change mine, so why not just agree to disagree and leave it at that?

quote:

Originally posted by dustoffer:

Seems to me that when we were training our chopper door gunners we had to teach them that bullets would strike low (or high) depending on which side of the chopper they were shooting out of. Sort of like the difference between a curve ball and a screwball. So, bullet could hit lower (or higher) at extended range, depending on whether it is a LH or RH twist, and whether the wind is a L or R crosswind.

dustoffer, that is exactly gyroscopic spin drift. A spinning object deflect perpendicular to a force applied to it. Therefore it deflects higher on one side and lower on the other................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:

quote:

Originally posted by dustoffer:

Seems to me that when we were training our chopper door gunners we had to teach them that bullets would strike low (or high) depending on which side of the chopper they were shooting out of. Sort of like the difference between a curve ball and a screwball. So, bullet could hit lower (or higher) at extended range, depending on whether it is a LH or RH twist, and whether the wind is a L or R crosswind.

dustoffer, that is exactly gyroscopic spin drift. A spinning object deflect perpendicular to a force applied to it. Therefore it deflects higher on one side and lower on the other................DJ

You don’t suppose that this might be due to the fact that the chopper is moving do you? Why would gyroscopic effect be different on each side of the chopper??

to Rick 0311,

I am curious about the calculation that you specify for determination of how much effect cant will have on accuracy. Could you (or anyone on the thread) explain in more detail how to set up the problem. I have some technical background but do not know exactly how to determine the error introduced if the scope is not quite level. If you could plug in some representative numbers also to give an example, would greatly appreciate that. I have always been told that it is not too crucial but don't know what the magnitude of the error is.

Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

You don’t suppose that this might be due to the fact that the chopper is moving do you? Why would gyroscopic effect be different on each side of the chopper??

In a right hand twist a right crosswind will raise the impact point, and a left crosswind will lower the impact point. With a left hand twist and spin it's just the opposite. But again this only comes into effect in long range or high crosswind velocities - like out of a helicopter going 100mph.
Oh and don't forget the Coriolis effect which might make a bullet drift about 1/10th" at 125yds in the Central US (actual figures)..............DJ

quote:

Originally posted by daryldouthat:
to Rick 0311,

I am curious about the calculation that you specify for determination of how much effect cant will have on accuracy. Could you (or anyone on the thread) explain in more detail how to set up the problem. I have some technical background but do not know exactly how to determine the error introduced if the scope is not quite level. If you could plug in some representative numbers also to give an example, would greatly appreciate that. I have always been told that it is not too crucial but don't know what the magnitude of the error is.

Thanks.

That formula can be found in “Understanding Firearms Ballistics...Basic to Advanced Ballistics, Simplified, Illustrated & Explained, by Robert A. Rinker, Mulberry House Publishing 2002.

The example he shows in his book (page 252) is:

A 25 inch drop for the bullet at a 12 degree cant. 25 X .208 (the sine of the cant angle) equals 5.2 inches of horizontal movement of the bullet due to the aiming error caused by the cant.

In perspective, a .30 caliber 175 grain bullet fired at 2,600 fps and zeroed for 100 yards will drop approximately 25 inches at 350 yards.

Again, IF you can hold the same amount of cant each time, and if your scope has the available adjustment, you can remove the aiming error when zeroing your rifle by adjusting the scope to compensate for it.

Does cant cause an aiming error, most certainly. Is the error at shorter ranges on larger targets enough to worry yourself to death over, of course not, but why not just remove the built in error to start with by having a properly set up rifle/scope that allows you to hold the rifle level in your natural shooting position?

I can drive a car with the front wheels out of alignment in a straight line by compensating with the steering wheel...but doesn’t it make more sense to just get the damned front end aligned?

Using David Tubbs and his rifles as an example in this discussion is ridiculous.

David Tubbs is an extremely disciplined marksman that has spent years perfecting his shooting positions so he can assume the exact same positions each and every time, and his equipment is designed and set up to compliment his specialized shooting positions and unique style.

That is certainly not the case with the rest of us mortal humans.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Using David Tubbs and his rifles as an example in this discussion is ridiculous.

Maybe it's just me but I tend to listen to advice from someone who has been there and done that and is one of the finest rifleman in the world a little bit more than from me or any other computer jockey.

12 degrees is quite a bit of more cant than is usually seen to make someones rifle fit more comfortably. That being said I seriously doubt that many hunters can hold a 5.2" group in the field.

We are probably argueing to many nits here. You could probably shoot every one of my rifles and not think they were the least bit canted. I'm just saying that a slight cant isn't going to make that big a difference, and that lots of people shoot very sucessfully on the target range with far more severe cants than we would ever put on a hunting rifle..............DJ

DJ,

David Tubbs competes in a very specialized sport and uses very specialized equipment specifically designed for his particular way of holding and shooting. His shooting positions are so stable and repeatable that he could have his scope mounted on a stand instead of his rifle and he could still put his rounds where he was aiming once he sighted in.

Using him and his equipment as an example for average hunters in the field is as ridiculous as using a formula race car drivers foot movements on the pedals while shifting and braking a race car at high speed as an example for people driving their kids to school in the family station wagon.

You seem to assume that beacause you do it that everyone out there has to cant their rifle off level in order to assume a comfortable shooting position...and that’s a pretty general assumption on your part, in my opinion.

David Tubbs advocates canting the rifle and believes that most people benifit from canting.Mr tubss sets his adjustable stocks for his cant,he also levels his reticle when the rifle is in the canted position for his long range prone position. Mr Tubbs rifle is canted more so in the standing and knelling position than when in the prone therefore his reticle is canted as well in the standing and knelling position. Mr. Tubbs explains in great detail in his book why he believes canting forms a more stable shooting position,he also states that a canted reticle once sighted in does not affect accuracy it only would affect accuracy when making sight adjustments such as an adjustment up or down would also moving horizontally as well.If anyone wants more info I suggest read Mr. books as to why he believes canting to be best

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:

You seem to assume that beacause you do it that everyone out there has to cant their rifle off level in order to assume a comfortable shooting position...and that’s a pretty general assumption on your part, in my opinion.

I never said such a thing as everyone you are making that up to try illogically extend an arguement. I said that many people would find it more comfortable.
You are also trying to narrow Tubbs into a specializaion which is also incorrect. He does a wide variety of shooting.
The point is that you think you are too smart to have any input that doesn't jive with your own personal preconceived notions, even if it comes from one of the most qualified experts on earth. Stay narrow minded if you want, I'm willing to learn..................DJ

Mount your scopes anyway you want to, but when someone asks how to level a reticle (which is what started this thread) it’s a bit silly (IMO) to tell them it doesn’t make any difference because “some†people own rifles that aren’t comfortable for them when things are level.

Rick, once again you miss the point that while there are many methods to try and get the scope "perfectly" level, it's not totaly critical on a hunting rifle it have it within the Nth degree of plumb. It's more important to have it level when you are shooting it the way you hold the rifle............DJ

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
Rick, once again you miss the point that while there are many methods to try and get the scope "perfectly" level, it's not totaly critical on a hunting rifle it have it within the Nth degree of plumb. It's more important to have it level when you are shooting it the way you hold the rifle............DJ

exactly

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
Rick, once again you miss the point that while there are many methods to try and get the scope "perfectly" level, it's not totaly critical on a hunting rifle it have it within the Nth degree of plumb. It's more important to have it level when you are shooting it the way you hold the rifle............DJ

I don’t recall ever stating that ANYTHING was “totally critical“...and in numerous answers to you I have continually stated that you should mount your scopes however you want to and that you are correct that at shorter ranges with larger targets it doesn’t make allot of difference. Which part of this are YOU missing, or is it YOU that just wants to argue???

my reticles will be adjusted level, I don't want another variable when I turn the turrets

I don't think I could golf with any of you guys....grin