I am looking for a new spotting scope for out west. I am looking at the Leupold 12 X 40 X 60 and a Kowa 20 X60 X 82. No Idea which way to go. All I used in the past was a Leupy straight 25 wich was always a little low on power.

While not entirely qualified to answer, I do have an opinion....
I was able to do an informal test this past fall, with a Bushnell/Bosch&Lomb 15-45x60 and a Leupold Gold Ring 12-40x60. The target was a steel frame shop between 600 and 700 yards away by rangefinder. With both set at 40x, I could see the sheet metal screws clearly (as black dots) with the Leupold, and I could not with the Bushnell (very fuzzy grey dots). I am in the process of purchasing a used Leupold in that power setting.
What are you going to use it for? Are you planning to pack it? An 82mm objective is a HUGE scope, and will weigh quite a bit, but it is more forgiving to look through. I have no experience with Kowa quality, but look through them side by side at a distant detail if you can and decide on that. Then take a look though a Zeiss or similar. Don't spend less than you can afford on optics. When that sheep looks like a shooter and you can't see the rings or how long the horns are because the spotter isn't clear, the money won't seem like as big an issue.
Hope that helps,
Good hunting,
Graham

I have not used a Kowa optic but do have the Gold ring Leupold12-40x60 and have used a fixed power in Leupold and old B/L and for my use, I liked the size and weight of the Leupold and the clarity of the optics....it rode in a padded case in a car for many miles and months and went thru several training camps and field use.....no problems and seldom wanted any more power or bigger objective......hth..good luck and good shooting!!

quote:

Originally posted by Tracker12:
I am looking for a new spotting scope for out west. I am looking at the Leupold 12 X 40 X 60 and a Kowa 20 X60 X 82. No Idea which way to go. All I used in the past was a Leupy straight 25 wich was always a little low on power.

The Kowa's are awesome spotters. This is from a review on http://betterviewdesired.com/K...24-82mm-Fluorite.php

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The big news, of course, is supposed to be the 82mm Fluorite objective. It is big. The view is very bright and yields high detail...though it has the slight warmness that some of us associate with Fluorite optics. The Kowa provides as good a view, as excellent a view, as you can currently buy. Very fine indeed.

I have the Kowa TSN-883 Angled 88mm Prominar Lens and it is the best that I have ever looked through, and that includes Swarovski, and Lieca.

The Leupold is not even close to the Kowa. The resolution is day and night better with the Kowa that you mentioned. Many top long range competitors use Kowa, such as David Tubbs

For use in the field get a Leupold. Off the bench-who cares?
Reason being is eye relief. On the side of a hill looking through a spotting scope you will find yourself in all sorts of contorted uncomfortable positions. Cramming your eye right up next to the eyepiece cup in order to get a full view makes things even worse.
I have a little 20 X 50 Leu I bought years ago (it is low tech) but light and handy. A few years ago I bought a Leu. 12 X 40 X 60 HD. It is outstanding and again has twice the eye relief any Euro or Asian model will have.
Another alternative is a Fujinon with a 25X long eye relief eye piece.
This makes a huge difference in the field!!
Think this is a big deal on a rifle scope? It is more important on a spotting scope if you use it often.
Leu are also typically lighter than the Euros and there are no flies on their HD models (optically).

EZ

Kowa makes a "Long Eye Relief" eye piece if that is your bag. An Angled eye piece solves the comfort problem..

jwp,

I have viewed Kowa scopes and even the 88 MM models; They are of outstanding optical quality but they are heavy (which is fine if you do not have to carry them in challenging terrain); In fact the weight may help keep them steady. The angled eye piece is great for viewing stars. Generally detachable eye pieces are not as durable as fixed units and not hermetically sealed (They can breath between the body and the eye piece which can cause some fogging.
Another issue with an angles eye piece is keeping them clear in rain. It is enough of an issue with a straight eye piece.
I would look at the application you are going to use you scope for.
If it is target shooting at 1000 yards then get a heavy very high resolution scope.
If you are hunting in a place like Alaska or the high mountains and YOU are carrying the scope you may want to take into consideration (weight, durability, compact, optical quality, simplicity). You are not going to want to carry multiple eye pieces (although 25X) is sufficient in most instances. Leu's 12 X 40 zoom is about perfect. At 12X you get a wider field of view for locating your target and at 40X it is sufficient to detail your subject. Above that heat waves are a real issue. At 40X heat waves can be an issue. The Leu keeps its eye relief through out its zoom range.
Most of these new scopes with ED glass or flourite Objectives are all outstanding.
I have lugged these units around in lung busting terrain and terrible weather. You do not want a 4Lb-6Lb scope on your back or one you have to baby (The new Leu's are armored). Make no mistake, you will bust your ass from time to time and you back pack will too with your gear and spotting scope.
If you are in a car or on a bench; No issue. The Leu (HD) models are a bit over a $1K; The Euros are $2K+ for HD optics. The Kowa 88 is above that. All great optics!
By the way; I have a Zeiss HD model with I believe a 85 MM objective and angled eye piece, but it sits on the porch of my farm house on a hill looking over an expansive river bottom. I do not carry it around with me!

EZ

50MM SPOTTING SCOPES

60MM SPOTTING SCOPES

66MM SPOTTING SCOPES

77MM SPOTTING SCOPES

82MM SPOTTING SCOPES

88MM SPOTTING SCOPES

Kowa makes a lot of different sized spotters

http://kowa-usa.com/frontend/Prodcat.asp?co=10000308

Personaly I've used both the straight and Angled in the field hunting and I prefer the angled by a large margin. I didn't think that I was going to like the angled when I first got it. Once I got past the learning curve I love it. I'll never buy another straight bodied spotter

quote:

I have viewed Kowa scopes and even the 88 MM models; They are of outstanding optical quality but they are heavy (which is fine if you do not have to carry them in challenging terrain);

Why would you "carry" the spotter around in the field?
When I hunted Dall Sheep in Alaska, I set the spotter up in base camp, once I spotted and identified a quality Ram the spotter stayed in camp while I climbed the mountain, stalk into position for a shot. Worked just fine for me.

Most of my hunts were back pack hunts. We were always on the move. Seldom had base camps. They were in remote areas. We were dropped off in one area in a bush plane and picked up at another pre determined destination.
When Hunting Moose and carribou in NW Alaska (above Kotzebue; W/O guide) we would walk 10-12 miles a day down valleys looking up on slopes. There is no way you could view the country required out of a camp. No horses, no vehicles; all on your back.
If you really want to go remote; you will be toting your gear.
A light weight spotter would allow us to detail our target across a valley without having to get closer for bino observation. Who need more footwork when they are already covered with sores.

I flew in and was dropped off. I viewed the mountain from base camp and stalked what was worthy. Don't see the point in walking for no reson, but that's just me.


No guide just us do it your-selfer's

JWP,

We are getting a little off the subject here but when I took my first trip to Alaska I believe in about 1985 a guide was required by law to hunt Sheep and Griz / Brown bears. No guide required for Goat, Moose, wolf, Wolverine or Caribou. I hunted Moose and Caribou W/O guide and did very well.
My sheep hunt was in NWT. Goat hunt in BC; Both required guides by law.

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Originally posted by eezridr:
JWP,

We are getting a little off the subject here but when I took my first trip to Alaska I believe in about 1985 a guide was required by law to hunt Sheep and Griz / Brown bears. No guide required for Goat, Moose, wolf, Wolverine or Caribou. I hunted Moose and Caribou W/O guide and did very well.
My sheep hunt was in NWT. Goat hunt in BC; Both required guides by law.

At that time a Guide was require for Grizzly/Brown bear and Mt. Goat. Sheep was added much latter.
Matters not as I was a resident at the time I was hunting in Alaska


The lodging




A Mountain Goat hunt that got snowed and fogged in

quote:

The Leupold is not even close to the Kowa. The resolution is day and night better with the Kowa that you mentioned. Many top long range competitors use Kowa, such as David Tubbs

Amen,

Go to Camp Perry during the summer matches and all you see is KOWA's. I peered thru one once at Perry, and liked it. But, I ended up buying a Swaro. It's not something to be carried around a mountain, but for range work it is high class.
If I was buying one for mountain carrying, it would be a KOWA mid weight.

IMHO a spotting scope is all about resolution and the bigger glass does a better job. Magnification is only part of the equation.

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Originally posted by jwp475:
IMHO a spotting scope is all about resolution and the bigger glass does a better job. Magnification is only part of the equation.

Outstanding point.
My eye piece is "only" 30x, and everybody gives me crap for not having one of the big variable eyepieces, that goes up to some ungodly high power. Well, I tell tham that the 80mmHD glass in the Swaro objective, plus a 30x eyepiece is all I need. They can't understand that because they haven't used a good scope.

Don

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Originally posted by DMB:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
IMHO a spotting scope is all about resolution and the bigger glass does a better job. Magnification is only part of the equation.

Outstanding point.
My eye piece is "only" 30x, and everybody gives me crap for not having one of the big variable eyepieces, that goes up to some ungodly high power. Well, I tell tham that the 80mmHD glass in the Swaro objective, plus a 30x eyepiece is all I need. They can't understand that because they haven't used a good scope.

Don

Exactly

One thing I will say about glass for out west, having graduated from a leupold gold ring to a swarovski is that if you are hunting when it is warm during the day, the mirages will mess with cheaper scopes. My swaro is hands down way better than the leopold. Ask anyone who shoots speed goats in the desert.

I will agree that all lens being equal that a larger objective will yield greater resolution. However you also need to look at the quality of the glass. I also agree that that 30X is sufficient. One thing I think might make you feel a little different about the Leupolds in a 60 MM objective is that they do offer a HD model with a Calcium Flouride objective lens. It is considerably better than their std. Gold ring.
My Zeiss 85 FL (Calcium Flouride objective) has a higher Res than the Leupold however I would not want to carry it is not as compact or rugged (non armored).
I have two 300MM lens for my Cannon Cameras (F4 Image stabilization and a 2.8 Image stabilization). The 2.8 is faster and higher resolution. It costs 4X as much and probably weighs 2.5X as much. Both have ED or Calcium Flouride objectives. There are trade offs. I use the F4 four times as much as the 2.8 simply because it is handy
I think you should line them all up and compare them.
It is allot of money any way you look at it.
I was in Yellowstone a few years back and there were people lined up on the side of the road with their spotting scopes out in the Lamar Valley watching wolves out about 1/2 mile away. Most had large scopes; Avid naturalist.
I was not joking earlier about using the angled eye piece for looking at stars. My kids do it all the time out in the country on a cold clear night. Great for looking up!

Ended up getting a great deal on a Kowa 824M with 20x60 zoom. It will get mainly range work and once or twice a year when I travel out west.

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Originally posted by Tracker12:
Ended up getting a great deal on a Kowa 824M with 20x60 zoom. It will get mainly range work and once or twice a year when I travel out west.

Let us know how you like, a review if you will

Will do. I picked the scope up yesterday and am just stoked over the deal. It is brand new and I picked it up for $550.00. I just saw a used on go on ebay for $1035.00. I bought it from a Marine who had won it at a match. While it is a little large the weight is not that bad. I am going to the range this week and will be interested to see how it shows those 17 cal rouinds at 100yards.

Good for you! I would love to hear a review after you get back from the range, as well. Good luck on your next Western hunt