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i have a bushnell 4200 6x-24x mounted(cz rings) on a cz 550 varmint in 308. i set the rifle up and with a level, made sure it was not canted to either side. then i set the scope in the rings and made sure it was not canted either. when i get about 2 feet back from the scope and look at the whole arrangment, everything looks good. the gun is straight, the crosshairs are vertical, and the top turret on the scope is straight up. but when i get the rifle into a shooting position(shouldered), the crosshairs appear to be canted to one side. when i rotate the scope so that the hairs look straight(from a shouldered position), the top turret on the scope is obviously canted to one side. anyone ever heard of this problem? do i have a screwed up scope? screwed up eyes? losing my mind??? i've shot the rifle with the scope tilted to one side so the hairs look correct and it shoots absoluted great. but it bugs me to have the scope tilted like that(just a few degrees of tilt but it just bothers me that somethings not right.) if anyone can tell me what's going on i would appreciate it. thanks in advance...bud blaming guns for crime is like blaming silverware for rosie o'donnell being fat | ||
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Obviously your natural shooting position puts the rifle on a bit of a cant. That’s a stock issue, not really a scope issue. We had a huge debate on here awhile back about the necessity of leveling the cross hairs to the rifle, but I believe you have answered your own question by stating that the rifle shoots great the way it is...so if I were you I wouldn’t worry about it. If you have a bubble level you can attach to the rifle you can see for yourself that you are canting the rifle off level a bit when you shoulder it. Again, though, if it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it. | |||
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rick...thanks for the reply. i also thought that i was canting the rifle when i put it to my shoulder. so to get rid of that problem, i put a bipod on it and set the rear of the stock in a sandbag, and then leveled it by adjusting the legs of the bipod so there was no cant in the rifle. that's why i called this a wierd problem. no cant to the rifle or scope, but as my eye gets into a shooting postion, the hairs appear to cant. with no cant in the rifle but the scope canted to one side, the hairs appear to be straight. i'm starting to lean towards the "losing my mind" explanation  .again...thanks blaming guns for crime is like blaming silverware for rosie o'donnell being fat | |||
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budiceale, If the rifle is putting your rounds where you want them you don’t have a “problem†in my opinion unless you want to make it one!  Just curious...have you tried hanging a plumb line, or finding a known vertically level object to aim at, and checking to see the level of your cross hairs against that known level target? You might just be experiencing an optical illusion from your head position that is making the reticle appear to be canted when it reality isn’t. | |||
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thanks again rick. no i haven't looked at a known vertical object thru the scope. i'll play with that idea some. i think you may be right about the optical illusion thing. great...now i have to reshape the cheekpiece actually, i think i'll just set the scope so it looks right when i aim at something and just live with scope being slightly(very slightly) canted. bud blaming guns for crime is like blaming silverware for rosie o'donnell being fat | |||
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bud, You do what you want to but I would strongly suggest that you hang a plumb line and aim at that first before you start messing with rotating your scope around. If you were having accuracy problems that might be different, but you said your rifle is a real good shooter so why screw with success? Canted reticles are a progressive problem as the range increases...that is, a slight cant at 100 yards that results in a very small deviation at the target will get progressively worse/larger as the range increases. Slightly adjusting your head/eye position on the rifle usually isn’t as big of a deal with a scope as it is with something like a peep sight. You might try some foam rubber and tape on the cheek piece to see if that does anything for you. | |||
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Worrying too much about Cant with drive you "plumb" crazy. My recommendation is to set the scope where it is level when you are shooting and go hunt. At normal hunting distances a little cant isn't going to matter in the field. Some of the finest long range marksmen in the world shoot with severely canted rifles so you and I probably won't suffer with a little cant................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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rick...ok, the plot thickens. i put the scope on the rifle and i made sure everything was square, level, vertical. i stood back about three feet behind the gun and everything looked right, and this has also been confirmed with a level. the gun is level and the scope is NOT canted and from 3 feet behind the gun the hairs look perfectly vertical and horizontal. i had my son and my neighbor look at it and we all agreed on that. then we all shouldered the gun(the rifle itself kept uncanted for the three of us by the bipod) and to all three of us the hairs look canted to the left(counterclockwise). i took your advice and found a vertical line to look at(the side/corner of another building about 50 yards away, confirmed to be vertical). the seemingly canted crooshair lined up perfectly with the edge of the building. the scope is causing the hairs and the view to cant a few degrees counterclockwise. when i cant the gun to get the crosshair to look vertical(which is a natual tendency when hunting), the veiw also turns and everything stays lined up but then i know that the bore is not directly under the center of the scope anymore. if my understanding of all this is correct, my other option is to rotate the scope in the rings so that the hair APPEARS to be vertical when i look through the scope, but it will actually be canted a few degrees to the right (clockwise). then the problem becomes...when i hold over something at long range i will also be unconciously holding off to one side. i'm going to contact bushnell tomorrow and see what they have to say about this. thanks for the plumbline idea...bud blaming guns for crime is like blaming silverware for rosie o'donnell being fat | |||
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Bud, You know I did read somewhere that Bushnell was installing small sensors in their scopes that could detect a human eye within a certain distance behind the scope and when that occured it automatically cocked the reticle just to screw with you!!! Seriously, I think I would be contacting them also cuz somethin ain’t kosher in there! Good luck, hope they can fix it for you. | |||
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djpaintles...with all my other rifles i have the same veiw of this as you do. a little cant here and there doesn't matter at all when it comes to shootin critters at hunting distances. however, i put this rifle together specifically to shoot at long distances and for the money i paid for this scope i would rather it didn't rotate the world when my eye gets close to it. i guess i'll have to get that damn little sensor removed. i figure, after years of alcohol, caffeine, and nicotine abuse, my eyes and nerves will cause enough built-in error...i don't need any error engineered into the system also, this rotating the universe phenomenon does not happen with the other scope i tried it with... an old 6x leupold. but thanks for the reply. any and all input is appreciated...bud blaming guns for crime is like blaming silverware for rosie o'donnell being fat | |||
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The cant will not affect long range shooting David Tubs cants his and recomends cant.I shoot out to 1200 yards and every one that looks through my scopes thinks the cross hairs are off they only need to be straight for the way that you hold the rifle.Manny make too much of this,if the recticle is level the way that you hold the rifle then all is fine. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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IF your rifle and scope are intentionally set up as a unit to be held canted then yes. And IF your scope has the adjustment range to compensate for the cant then it is also a yes. But just stating that canting doesn’t matter is a bit of a misstatement without the added qualifiers. | |||
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jwp...i'm not argueing with you. if you shoot anything at 1200 yards, you are way ahead of me at this game . but please explain...let's say i mount the scope so that the vertical crosshair looks vertical when i aim at a target, but the scope is actually canted a little clockwise. i sight the rifle in at 200 yards and it shoots great groups at that range. if i see a coyote at 400 yards and hold over it, aren't i also holding a little off to one side(the right side, i think)on the other hand, let's say i make sure that the rifle, scope and crosshairs are set up correctly(but the hairs look to be canted counterclockwise). then, when i shoot i will cant the the rifle so that the vertical hair looks vertical but the bore will actually be off to one side of the center of the scope. please correct me if i'm wrong(i really am trying to learn something here ) but that would mean that the bullet would start out off to one side of the line of sight, cross the line of sight at a certain distance(200 yards), and then continue to get horizontally farther away from the line of sight as it gets farther down range. so i would need to hold not just to correct the vertical trajectory but also for the horizontal movement of the bullet.again...not trying to start any arguements...just trying to understand. this is getting real interesting...bud blaming guns for crime is like blaming silverware for rosie o'donnell being fat | |||
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Your are assuming that if the rifle is canted and the scope reticle is level that you will not be accurate, because the verticle leg of the reticle is not running through the center of the bore. This assumtion is only partialy correct.The verticle leg is not running through the center of the bore is the correct part of the assumtipon.If you held a level from the intersection of the reticle to the center of the bore you would find that is running through the center of the bore. The intersection of the reticle will always run through the center of the bore,this will not change no matter the cant. As long as the reticle is level with the way you hold the rifle then hold and or adjustment will be correct. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Bud, A bunch of people on here have used David Tubbs very specilized target rifle as an example to sell their theory on canting. You can zero a scope and rifle together as a unit to be held in any position you want to if the scope has the adjustment range to bring the POA back to where the bore is actually pointing. However, mounting a scope to a rifle that will be heldother than level requires more adjustments to be made to compensate for the fact that the optical axis of the scope is not going to be in the same vertical plane as the center of the bore any longer...and you must adjust the scope to compensate for that. Take a piece of paper and draw a vertical line down its length. Now take a set of dividers (or use your index and middle finger) and place the lower point on the line (this will represent your barrel). Now rotate (cant) it a bit. What happens to the top point (representing your scope)? Right!!!...it moves off to one or the other side of the vertical line. Same thing in reality with a rifle and scope and you have to adjust both elevation and windage to point the cross hairs back to where the bore is pointing. If you have the adjustment range then all well and good...just make sure that you cant the rifle the same anount every time, and also hope it doesn’t get too windy where you might run out of adjustments. | |||
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With a constantly centered reticle, and assuming a properly mounted scope, the junction of the cross hairs will always be centered on the center of the bore no matter what position the rifle is at. Unfortunately, gravity works on a vertical plane and the wind effecting a bullet is normally coming from a horizontal angle. If a scope is mounted directly over the receiver with its optical axis directly over the bore then any deviation from the vertical plane will require scope adjustments to bring the POA back to where the bore is actually pointing. The greater the deviation, the greater the adjustment needed. If you ever used a side mounted scope you will know that allot of windage adjustment is used in getting the scope zeroed to the bore. That is one of the reasons that the M1 sniper rifles were not all that popular for really long range sniping where wind plays a major role in accuracy. | |||
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The scope is not side mounted and thier is no effect. A canted rifle with a level reticle works not theory just fact _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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If you are referring to bud’s scope as not being side mounted then you should also calculate in that he has already established that the scope is defective and is giving him the illusion of a canted reticle when in reality the reticle is not canted. On your other statement, you are being less than informative unless you explain that in order for the scope to be zeroed on a canted rifle you must use adjustments that would not be necessary if the rifle/scope were not being held in a cant which placed the optical axis of the scope and the bore axis on a different vertical plane. You can argue about that all you want to but your are mistaken if you claim that this is not the case. | |||
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[quote]On your other statement, you are being less than informative unless you explain that in order for the scope to be zeroed on a canted rifle you must use adjustments that would not be necessary if the rifle/scope were not being held in a cant which placed the optical axis of the scope and the bore axis on a different vertical plane. You can argue about that all you want to but your are mistaken if you claim that this is not the case.[/quote/] I know that is what you believe, because I have seen you argue it with others.The intersection of the reticle is always center of the bore and you do not have to make added adjustments You can argue all you want but you are incorrect I have tried it and I know. I have read what David Tubbs has to say about it and it is in direct conflict with what Rick0311 has to say about it there is no need to continue as I all ready know how you feel about the subject _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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This is pretty simple to prove to yourself. Pretend for a moment that you are setting up your scope and rifle to be vertically level. Use a laser bore sighter aimed at a wall so can can actually see where the bore is pointing and when you have the rifle and scope level zero the scope to be on the same vertical plane as the bore. Now place two small pieces of tape on the wall to mark where the bore and the cross hairs are pointing. Now rotate your rifle so it‘s canted. Now turn on the laser again and put the dot on the piece of tape where the bore was first pointing and look through your scope and see where your reticle is in relationship to where it was before. If your “theory†is correct then the center of your cross hairs should be right on the same tape mark that they were before...Right? | |||
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Rick, How long is it going to take you to realize that you are just wrong on this subject?... ... It's a case were you're probably right in theory but wrong in practice....  ..............DJ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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That is not what I am saying.You are taking a sighting and then canting the rifle of course it is not in the same place. Now cant the rifle,then level the reticle.sight in. At this point all shooting is done with rifle canted but reticle is level.The dials will work as always.I am saying that if you cant the rifle when you hold it and then level the reticle it wil work the same as if you held the rifle level with the reticle level. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Which is exactly what I also said, if you would take the time to read my posts rather than just getting pissed off. All I added was the qualifier that it takes additional adjustments to zero a scope when the reticle and the rifle are not on the same vertical plane. The more cant, the more additional adjustments that are needed. If you dispute that then you don’t know anything about rifle scopes and exterior ballistics. You can also prove that to yourself using the same laser procedure. Start with an optically centered reticle and count the clicks necessary to zero with the reticle and rifle level to each other. Then cant the rifle and level the reticle and see if where the cross hairs are. You will find that they have to be moved by additional adjustments to get back to the zero position with the bore. If your scope has those additional adjustments available, and you aren’t going to need them at longer ranges in windy conditions then don’t worry about it. | |||
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Could it be possible that the turrets on the scope are slightly rotated in relation to the crosshairs? What did the manufacturer say when they were contacted? | |||
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I had a Leupold LPS 4.5X14 with the same problem. Leupold replaced the original scope saying it had a "canted reticle". I'll bet the problem is your scope. | |||
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