It is my conjecture, as I wasn't there, that in the good old days, many an animal were wounded, and there simply wasn't the consideration one has now adays to have a round that will take care of things with one good shot, under good, and not so good conditions. In this day and age, there is enough field experience to weed out what has worked well, and what hasn't worked so well. If one can afford a Safari, then one can afford to choose something known to work well.

What all do you think?

I haven't read Bell's books (again) for some time. Maybe it was Taylor, or someone, stated or speculated that when Bell wounded an elephant it wasn't necessarily pursued and killed.

That isn't much of an option nowadays, where every elephant comes at a dearly price, at least for me.

It is without a doubt that the 7mm has great penetration and will work most of the time but not every time and not under all conditions. I just can't afford to experiment with little guns.

Will

Paul,

I think in general, as the amount of game shot goes down, interest in the guns and calibers increases.

Back then those blokes would have been very good shots. If ever you have seen a pro roo shooter with a 223 you will know what I mean.

A very good friend of mine was one of the few full time pro fox shooters when the skins had the good price. To see him shoot, you would know that if he took a 308 to Africa with FMJs there would be lots of one shot kills

For a large number of us on these forums the gun/caliber is an integral part of the whole thing.

Mike

I remember a time when Hornady had a combo RNSP and RNSolid in .308 ( 220 grs ), .338, .358 and so on ( yes, seems I am that old ). I often wondered about their efficiency at Ele and Buff. Regrettably they don�t make those anymore - I can imagine sales weren�t that brisk - but anyway, I would have liked to test them. There was also a RWS load with 286 grs RNSolids in 9.3x62 and x74R, gone too.

I understand the bullets of the .275 Rigby were of best quality, but those Hornadies of 30 years ago had a good reputation, too. ( Excluding the first batches of .458`s ).

Anybody any first hand experiences? Hermann

I think most tend to think the solid will not kill, and most have not used it much...I saw an elephant shot in the heart with a 7x57 solid and it went 150 yds or so and died and it left a heck of a blood trail, that's about what I expect out of a 458 with a solid...

I have shot a lot of Buffalo with solids of varias calibers, even a few with 308 and 7x57 without complaint, albiet I like a 9.3 or larger and prefer a 40 cal..I have some complaints on softs...A well placed solid is pretty darn effective in most calibers, and never fails to penitrate..

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson:

I have shot a lot of Buffalo...

How many is "a lot"? Where, when?

/

Alf,

I do not have a e-mailaddress. As you know the telephone connections are not too good here.
If I can help you, which I may, ask your questions here at this forum and I will answer you if I can. I am between hunts at the moment and can use a computer here unti lJune16th.

Mr. Mac,
you are nothing but an old idiot, I will not answer your posts.

I'm thinking that during the time of Bell, alot of wounded game wasn't followed up on no matter what it was shot with. There was always plenty more to go after then.

Suluuq,

How much trouble would you take to follow up a wounded prairie dog?

Mike

Rusty

If you read John Taylors books, he never comes out and says he poached; not that I noticed anyway. He does give the definite impression with his statements about being warned by the local natives that the game officers were in the area and looking to arrest him that the hunting he was doing definitely wasn't licensed and legal.

I have read that Bell could shoot geese on the wing at a hundred yards with his 275 Rigby; and when and where he hunted allowed him to stand off 50 -75 yards and pick his shots. And he didn't pick the biggest ivory, but was willing to settle for what he could get easily from the edge of the herd. A different kind of elephant hunting than wading into the middle of a herd with a big double gun looking to shoot just the biggest ivory you can find.

Actually Bell's hunting was probably better for the elephants, as he would leave a herd with at least some of its leaders intact and some of the big bulls to breed more big ivory. I understand that in some heavily poached areas up to 30% of the african elephants no longer grow tusks (heard this on an animal planet special, so I don't know if it's true or not, but kinda scary in a way).

Rusty Gunn
In Taylor's day poaching was little more than tax evasion. An elephant tag was sold yo tax the ivory hunters for the most part.

CMcDermott
Go back and read Pondoro again. Chapter 6 "The Great Tana Raid" chronicles what Taylor called the most "successful poaching raid anywhere". This was real poaching as the Tana was closed to hunting.

Jason

Sad, but true! Most of the old Ele hunters were simply illegal market hunters, or outright poachers. The laws, and tags in those days were not there to protect the animals, as they are today. No body did population surveys, or even cared how many there were, because there seemed to be so many you couldn't shoot them out. The tags were sold to get part of the profit, for the governer, without working for it. The ivory hunters only considered these permits to be extortion, and avoided them as much as possible.

You have to understand, these safaris were on foot, and some of the small chamberings used were because the ammo was not only cheap, but light to carry. When you had to carry not only the Ivory you shot, but all the ammo for a two month hunt, you made do. The drill was, shoot as many ele as you could from a herd, quickly, and not worry about the ones that got away. At the kill sight you had a lot of work to do, and nobody was going to spend a whole day chaseing ONE elephant that may even be only slightly wounded.

Taylor, Wally Johnson, Bell, and many of the old retired PHs, that are still alive today, poached on occasion years ago. I was told that one of the best known PHs, recently deceased, had the habit of going into parks to get a large elephants he knew of, and got away with it for years, by bribe.

We ethical hunters, tend to think of PHs as Gods, who can do no wrong! They are people, after all, and some are extremely ethical, and some are a little shady, even today!

I would bet, if there were any way to measure it, that there were wounded Elephant wounded in almost every clash, by Ivory Hunters, that were not followed up, and were never given a second thought. This is why I hate to hear these people who declare "WELL BELL SHOT THOUSANDS OF ELEPHANT WITH A 7MM MAUSER, SO I SHOULD BE ABLE TO USE MY 7 MM ON BUFFALO". Thats just plain dumb, and nobody, to day, is going to do that, if he has a lick of sense!

[ 06-15-2002, 17:07: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

From what I have read, one of the last proponents of the 7x57 for anything was Werner Von Alvensleben. He was a post war hunter and PH in moz. His ethics seems to be without question as far as the animals go. He had shot over a thousand buff 'mostly with a 7x57". Robert Chatfield Taylor said Werner was always trying to get him to come hunt with his 7x57 and to leave his bigbores at home.
From what I've read, Werner seemed to have nothing but icewater in his veins though!

quote:

Originally posted by TSJ:
From what I have read, one of the last proponents of the 7x57 for anything was Werner Von Alvensleben. He was a post war hunter and PH in moz. His ethics seems to be without question as far as the animals go. He had shot over a thousand buff 'mostly with a 7x57". Robert Chatfield Taylor said Werner was always trying to get him to come hunt with his 7x57 and to leave his bigbores at home.<br />From what I've read, Werner seemed to have nothing but icewater in his veins though!

I just finished Brian Marsh's brilliant book on Werner von Alvensleben. Nowhere did I find a reference to the 7x57. Apparently Werner hunted mainly with a Mannlicher-Schönauer in 9,3x62. Where did you read about Werner's 7x57?

One of Werner's friends was professional hunter Georg Dedek. Because of his fair skin he carried a little umbrella along! A ph with an umbrella, funny guy. One thing in connection with his umbrella is highly interesting:

" Georg always hunted in a "Kenya-style" safari jacket, a loose-fitting, sleeveless garment with cartridge loops across the breasts and four large pockets down the front. When about to shoot, Georg would thrust the tip of the closed umbrella into the bottom left-hand pocket of his jacket, and shooting from the right shoulder, would rest his rifle on the umbrella's handle, which gave him a steady rest."

Well, I don't take an umbrella along when hunting in Africa but I have a short shooting stick, purchased in Germany, which I sometime use in exactly the same manner, rest it in a vest pocket or a pouch on the belt. Works as well as a shooting stick with two or three legs but way faster.

I have seen people use one to hide behind while stalking.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have seen people use one to hide behind while stalking.

Yes.

quote:

I haven't read Bell's books (again) for some time. Maybe it was Taylor, or someone, stated or speculated that when Bell wounded an elephant it wasn't necessarily pursued and killed.

I'd love to find the page (s) and reference. Long running bet with someone but I've never found the quote..

Based upon all the "good old days" books I've read (re:shooting ellies with small calibers), the elephants were often found in more open areas than what you generally incur today, and the shooters were professionals, whom no doubt wounded quite a few until they got the hang up it, and then they became very proficient.

A friend of mine's parents own a ranch in Montana were they raise buffalo (American Bison) for meat.

At an early age, my friend learned to shoot the buffalo behind the ear with a 30-30 at about 30-40 yds. He became very proficient with that shot, because he knows how to wait for the correct angle.

Today, not many people would have the opportunity to shoot enough elephants to become really proficient with smaller calibers.

BH63

If anyone has seen a professional hunter shoot; they don't miss. Bell didn't, for the most part do body shots, and I have seen a pro-hunter I know, brain a running elephant at 50 yards. If they got within the distances we read about today, 25 yards and less, there's no reason anyone can't make a brain shot. Pretty decent size target and if you know where it's at, you can hit it. Bell just didn't wound elephants. Pondoro Taylor lived out in the bush for 30 years, and lived off the land. He figured he shot well over a 1000 buffalo alone, and how many smaller game animals, for camp meat, because he had a gang of natives with him, same as Bell. Bell said he shot up a case of iffy 7mm ammo he had, shooting at Cormorants from a boat on a river, but they were closer to 50 yds than a hundred. But sure would teach you leading, etc. I have a friend from Rhodesia, now Zim who was a professional hunter there. He used mostly a 308, because Military ball ammo was available at a good price, and he hunted all year. Said he averaged 3500-4,000 animals a year. Used a 458 on Elephant for the most part, but said if you knew where the brain was, a 308 would work. I have seen a lot of MIS-information on where to shoot an elephant with a brain shot, and it's NOT half way between the eye and ear hole. That are is solid bone. It is a few inches in front of the ear hole, where the bone thinner and the brain right behind that area. An elephants brain kind of shaped like a loaf of bread, so an easy target for anyone doing a lot of shooting. Bell said on occasion he used a ladder to shoot from, to get above the grass, so would have that as some support if he needed it.

These pro-hunters didn't fool around and knew where to hit an animal. Taylor mentions several times, walking towards a herd of Buffalo and they'd walk towards him or just stand and look. When the big boys came out front, he'd drop to his knee, hit two with frontal chest shots, and switch rifles, or reload and hit two more as they turned to go. BTW, while shooting from a kneeling position might sound dumb, my prohunter friend said, that IS the best position for Buff because they only 4 feet high at the shoulder, and kneeling puts you on a better sight plain.

I have read Pondoro at least 3 times, and someone else mentioned it, that the great Tana River raid sounded a bit of a BS story, as that in N. Kenya, and walking all the way up there from Mozambique a bit of a trek. But it also transpired back in the 30s, so shooting there then probably was not closed. Same with shooting a lot of places. Taylor notes an elephant license could be had for a few $, and he would buy them, but wasn't always hunting where the license for. If you do the math, he was out in the blue, for 30 years, that's 360 months, so only had to shoot a Elephant every couple weeks to meet expenses. He does admit he was a poacher in the sense that he didn't always have a license, but was living off the game, and felt it didn't really belong to the government anyway.

Long story short, I seriously doubt Bell wounded any animals. They were dead if he shot at them. As he noted, when he first started shooting, he cut the heads open front to back ,to learn where the brain at. My prohunter friend said you take two rods, and run one from ear hole to ear hole and one up and down, through the brain, so now you have a crosspoint, you can memorize where that is, and visualize it's movement and where it is when the head is at different angles. No reason to wound. If anyone has seen a elephant culling video, the cullers are using 308s, and ball ammo, but know where to shoot. They will kill a dozen or more elephants in 15 seconds. So with a pro as Bell was, no reason to be wounding.

A professional hunter, in Zim, was someone who bought up licenses for excess animals, as no hunting as we know it. He'd then go out and kill the ones he had licenses for, and then "owned them" so had them taken to a butchering operation, where they were processed and the meat sold, the bones sold the glands so, the hides sold. Body shots pretty much not used as a bruise on say the ribs of an animal, would taint the whole load. I'm sure animals tainted by bullet bruises went to the help for their rations. If I had some way to put it on here, have a side picture of a sectioned elephants skull, showing where the brain at.

Not trying to be arguementative or troll, but when you say there’s no reason to wound, yea, but it happens. Anyone who uses pointed military fmj’s knows that they don’t necessarily penetrate in a staight line. Bell used German made 173 grain round nose fmj loads. Almost all military rounds at first used such bullets. 215 grain 303, 220 gr 30-40 Kraig. All were replaced by spitzer bullet loads by WW1. Colonial Africa was a place where the previous generation of rifles and ammo was in common use. The round nose heavies were better straight line penetraters then as they would be today. By the way, even great shots have a bad day. Lol

Is there a record for resurrecting old post? 16 years must be in the running....Half the original posters are gone, for one reason or another. If it you cost nothing to bang away at elephants for their ivory with a small caliber, would you still do it?

In his new book, (the safari press one from recovered info) Bell did comment on if you had a near miss with a small bore on the brain shot, it in effect did no damage to the elephant.

My take away was Bell was wounding a percentage that acted like they were not wounded, and the numbers were there so he wasn’t upset about it except as to it being money lost. He felt the brain shot on elephant was the most humane as they dropped instantly.

He also made note of a case where he dropped one, took the tail, and when he came back the bull was gone-

All in all, he was pretty clear he was doing it for the money.

WTH: I just as well jump in here too.

I just read the SCI book: Months of the Sun by Ian Nyschens.
Don't recall if he said how many years he was a poacher on the Ivory Trail. He does say he'd shot n killed over a 1000 elephants. He made his living with ivory he and a couple partners killed. Most of the time he did it with only a tracker and water carrier along.

Several times he killed cows by the dozen when the "Zambezi Ladies" charged in a bunch after he'd shot a couple bulls up close.

A number of times he stated that his shot had missed the brain. He used a .450 Rigby most of the time, but, others sometimes too. Especially after their boat sunk and all the guns and gear was lost. IF you haven't read this book, you're missing one hell of a great read. When no other shot was available, he shot 'em in the hip joints or up the ass to spine 'em, then when they went down he'd brain 'em from behind. Quite a few side heart shots too. His intention was to kill for the ivory regardless.

No way I believe Bell, nor Taylor "never missed a brain shot, nor wounded one". It just don't happen that way regardless of how great a shot you are.

George

If attempting to make a brain shot with a small bore, or even a big one, and you miss the brain, you're not going to "kill" the elephant, let run off and die. if not hit IN the brain, the rest of the head is BONE, and unless a heavy caliber, won't hardly make them stumble. I was misinformed for years, and when I shot my elephant, shot it between the eye and ear, as I'd read so many times. 375 300gr solid, at 25 yds. It shook as if sucker punched and turned to go. I was trying to get another shot in from behind the ear, when the PH shot it twice with his 460, One in the chest and once in the spine. I gave it another shot down through the top of the head. The discussion got to where it appeared that an elephant wounded went off and died. If a missed brain shot, with a 7x57, or even a heavier caliber, not going to kill it, so not like it was being wounded and then go off and die somewhere. It's known that a near miss, on a brain shot, with a heavier caliber can knock an elephant out for a bit (Taylors KO value based on that). Point is, I guess, people like Bell weren't wounding elephants and having them run off and die.

If you hunt enough, you will wound game that you never recover.

There is no way around it.

It is no difference to other predators wounding animals and these animals escape wounded.

Facts of life, and there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it.

You don’t want to do it, stay home and eat your super market steak!

Saeed. True. If body shooting, you going to sometime wound some and they going off and die and be lost. But we started off talking about brain shooting elephants with 7x57 and them being lost if the brain not hit. They might be lost, but not going to die, so not really lost, in the sense they're going to die and be wasted. I'm sure that somewhere along the line, shooting 1000s of pieces of game for camp meat , all these folks, Bell, Taylor, etc., may have lost some with a bad shot. But, again, the subject was people like Bell shooting elephants with his 7x57. I think I mentioned I have a picture of an elephant skull cut front to back showing where the brain is, etc. and if someone can post it on here, I can send it to them. If you can't hit a soccer ball sized target, at 50 yards, should probably stay home to begin with.

My take on Bell, and Taylor's, shooting was that they were both experienced hunters that weren't prone to panic as they knew their shooting abilities, performance of their firearms and habits of their game.

They stalked in close and placed their shots carefully.

That explains the small number, or lack of, wounded animals.

Not firing a shot unless you could be sure to kill with it is what Taylor said.

This is hunting basics.

Taylor advocated using long for calibre, straight sided round nose bullets with heavy jackets so they would penetrate well without deviating (as much as a spire point) in bone.

This formula worked with many calibres shooting heavy for calibre projectiles. .275, .303 British, .318 Jeffrey, .333 Jeffrey, .375 H&H etc

With the ability to stalk close, know the animals anatomy and delivery an adequate projectile from a mild shooting rifle I don't doubt what Bell did with elephant with his .275, .303 & .318. And it's why he wouldn't have a lot of wounded game to contend with.

Remember to a professional ivory hunter it's a whole lot safer and economical/profitable to take your time and kill your game with one shot. These guys wanted to be carrying ivory not tracking wounded game.

Of course anyone who shoots enough game will would something eventually.

The objectionable thing I find in Taylor's writings is his pride in bucking authority. It gets a bit monotonous.........it certainly won't stop me reading his books again though.

I have no doubt that a .275 with good long round nose solids would kill any Elephant, or buffalo, hippo, rhino that ever walked the earth if you shot it in the butt of the ear (brain shot - from the right angle) and it'd be a whole lot easier shot with a mild kicker like a .275 (7x 57mm mauser) than something that "bucked and bellered".

quote:

Originally posted by tysue:
Saeed. True. If body shooting, you going to sometime wound some and they going off and die and be lost. But we started off talking about brain shooting elephants with 7x57 and them being lost if the brain not hit. They might be lost, but not going to die, so not really lost, in the sense they're going to die and be wasted. I'm sure that somewhere along the line, shooting 1000s of pieces of game for camp meat , all these folks, Bell, Taylor, etc., may have lost some with a bad shot.

So very true - I have come across quite a few animals with bullets lodged in their bodies yet survived.

One in particular that will remain forever embedded in my memory was an old Ninja that I had shot in Masailand.

It took all of 4 rounds from my 500 in the boiler room before the lights finally went out and upon dissecting the heart, which among other prime cuts the trackers go for when gutting an animal, we found a perfect round steel ball of approx. 8mm diameter lodged and fully healed, in the wall of one of the ventricles.

Had that ball, obviously fired from a poacher's muzzle-loader had a pinch more of powder charge, that buffalo skull would not have adorned my wall.

A similar scenario can be quite common in trying to brain an Elephant with a light caliber such as the 7x57; if the shot is slightly off, its as good as a clean miss with barely any side-effects, hence the reason why twin pipes with big exit holes and many ft/lbs per sq. inch, commonly known as "stopping" or "knock-down" power, come into play and offer the possibility of that crucial second shot.

How could any of those guys long ago not wound and lose at least some animals, it's simply impossible given the numbers they did take. Similarly the idea that all elephant shot through the head but missed the brain always survive. Infection alone would eventually bring down some of them but by then the hunter is long gone. Using the same analogy there's more than a few people shot through the head and still living, but there are far more who didn't live to tell about it.

The world was far different back then, both in societal norms and the relatively new technology of small bore firearms. There are plenty of examples of people using the latest rifle caliber back then that people today would consider suicide to go after an elephant with. Im sure there are also plenty who didn't survive the encounter.

Yes guys like Bell must have been great shots but they also were the ones who wrote the books. Little facts like missing are easily left out.

Lest we not forget the context regarding the use of small bores in Elephant hunting.

The commonly cited proponents of the use of small bores for elephant shooting were not sport hunters ! They were by and large commercial hunters ( legal and illegal) that hunted for ivory as a commercial commodity. At the time and through experience the small bore magazine rifle was deemed superior to large bore sporting rifles of the time.

The same was found later during cull hunting for elephant ( not for buffalo ) in both Rhodesia and South Africa.

The very users of these rifles proposed large bore rifles for sport hunting !