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I just finished watching Mark Sullivan's DEATH BY THE TON which I bought from Andre here on the forums. By the way, thanks for the easy transaction Andre, a pleasure to do business with you. My question is, it seems like Mark Sullivan almost always immediately shot the animal that his client was hunting. By immediately, I mean as soon as the client shot, Sullivan was shooting before the client had a chance to even get the gun back down out of recoil. I have read the opinions of Sullivan, but I am more interested in is this the norm? Do most PH's fire as soon as the client, or do they only fire if they feel it would be in the best interest of the client or a humane kill of the animal? | ||
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| One of Us |
This is something that should be discussed between the client and his/her PH, before going out after DG. Some clients ask to be backed up whilst others do not want any back up until there is a wounded situation, this should be clear up front, however at the time of the first shot the PH should be able to tell if it was a 'bad' shot or not and it would be his/her responsability to call a back up shot as any hunters ethic is to kill as quickly as possible and reduce the danger to human life. Unfortunatley some folk try to boost their image when there is a camera around for promotional use and disregard our ethics. | |||
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This has been hashed and re-hashed several times in the past. You'll find a lot of strong opinions as they post. Lo do they call to me, They bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla, Where the brave may live forever. | |||
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Actually, this is what seperates the true PH from the rifraf who are on an ego trip. A true PH would only shoot when it becomes ABSOLUTELY necessary. A true PH would do his utmost to make sure a situation where a charge occurs is avoided by whatever means necessary. I have hunted dangerous game since 1982. And have always told my PH that he is free to shoot any time he deems it necessary. After shooting well over 100 buffalo, we have never, ever been charged. | |||
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This is one thing I really enjoyed about my buffalo hunt among many other things; my PH had a Win. Model 70 in 375H&H, but never raised it or gave any indication he was in the game. He was ready, but after he turned the situation over to me, he was invisible. He was the professional I hoped he would be. | |||
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It you've seen the video of my last elephant hunt, you'll see what I think is both appropriate PH restraint and necessary back up. After an attempted frontal brain shot that (for a moment) dumps the elephant, Brent Hein realizes that I can't see the elephant getting up and fires his .470 twice and then (somewhat emphatically  ) "encourages" me to put more shots into the elephant when she does actually get up and I can see it.It's a pretty intense few seconds in the thickest crap in Zim, I think. JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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Absolutly True  Nec Timor Nec Temeritas | |||
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Andrew Dawson of chifuti safaris advises his clients that it is a good idea for the PH to back up the shot immediately, regardless of the fact the buff may have been hit well the first time. He is good at it too, as can be seen in "Boddington on Buff" he never quite pulls the trigger before the client but it's close. He reacts to the clients shot like it's his CUE to kill the buff. His clients don't seem to mind much which is good for him, that dude is having some fun,  not that he's really boisterous though, you can see he shows some restraint.  | |||
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RayRay Thanks for mentioning Andrew Dawson's name. I want to be sure I never hire him or Chifuti Safaris, based on their eagerness to ruin a paying customer's hunt. | |||
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I hunted with Chifuti twice for Buff, Tuskless, Hippo, and Leopard. The Buff was my first DG animal and we discussed followup shots before hand. He said he would only shoot if I wanted him to followup or in a life threatening situation. I told him to shoot immediately after me for that first animal as I wanted him on the ground. Glad I did because 14 shots later the Buff finally went down. I double lunged him with first shot but he got his adrenlin up and wouldn't quit. Somewhere around the 5th or 6th shot from us (and Paul Smith) Andrew shot him in the right eye with his .470, knocked him down but he got right back up and kept going. My point to this is: don't judge the PH by what you interpret on the video. You don't know what discussions/agreements were made before the shooting began. "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail" - Emerson | |||
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Mike, I think you will find that most PH's will not even raise their rifle until they think things have gone sour. My discussion with my PH's about backup has always been that if they decide it's necessary please do shoot. I think this is the best policy. It may save you a trophy fee, shorten the suffering of the animal and prevent a long drawn out and perhaps dangerous follow-up. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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I second Mark Young. The PH's I work with wouldn't dream of shooting their client's animal, unless a problem situation arises or the client specifically requests back-up. Dave | |||
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More than not the PHs are getting you to pay their hunts. My only experience when John Sharp made a second shot was he realized I was having trouble with second round with my rifle failing to function. He profusely apologized for saving my sorry butt.My words not his. A true PROFESSIONAL HUNTER lets you decide how it is to be handled. | |||
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Andrew Dawson shot every clients buff on the video immediately except Craig's and he wasn't even carrying a rifle that you could see. I have only hunted buff 4 times and have been backed up but only properly. I won't knowingly pay to hunt with this sort of program. PVT's guys(Wickes and Clinton) seem to have it right as did Kieth with Don Bower.(L1 Selous) Saeed's remarks were on the mark. | |||
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Thank you all very much for your polite and honest replies. I have one kid halfway through college and one to go...then Africa! | |||
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One of the very first discussions we had in the truck, was how back up was to be handled. I told my PH that if he felt we were in danger, or if he felt we might lose an animal, to PLEASE feel free to back me up! Mark Jackson  | |||
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You'll never get charged if you keep popping them from 250 yards!  Besides, with your shooting skills, the buff are dead the moment the bullet hits them.  "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Yes, my "wannabe" opinion is the distance the buffalo is shot at makes a huge distance to the likelihood of getting charged or not. Some guys want to snipe from a far, others really like to get really close and personal. It is pretty obvious a charge is more likely in the second scenario. Most of Sullivan's buffalo seem to be a lot more close than long range "sniping". I also would not hunt with a PH whom "automatically" shoots on my report for cape buffalo. If they want a hunt, they can pay for their own. I have no problem with sensible backing up, ie if the animal may escape wounded ie ethical - less chance of it dying slowly from wounds, or if it is necessary for safety reasons ie charges. | |||
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I am afraid it is not out of choice that I shoot buffalo at long range. I hunt with a PH who thinks 50 yards is "a bit far" for buffalo. But we are not going to let a chance at a buffalo pass by if he is couple of hundred yards further than we wish him to be.. Actually, the chance of getting charged - because of a bad shot - is more likely at the longer distances. So far we have been very lucky. As Walter likes to say "the buffalo got in the way of the bullet" | |||
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Sounds fair to me. ozhunter | |||
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This does not apply to Saeed. The buff that he shoots always seem to get in the way of the bullets' path in the DRT zone!  "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Certainly doesn't apply for me as you must hit the animal to wound it, even at a mere 100m. | |||
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Saeed shooting skills are increadible but his rifles are ugly L | |||
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You sound just like Walter! I have several hundred rifles. And Walter thinks we should hunt with different rifles each year. When I tell him we are taking the same rifles, he says "BORING! As usual" He offered to repaint my stock. I told him I did not want him to paint it. He said he would do it while I am not around. I told him if he did he would make a good meal for our crocs. | |||
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I have only taken one Buffalo. During the first 4 days of the hunt it was understood the PH would only shoot in dire emergency. When we went out the last afternoon of the hunt I said he should back up on the spot. I didn't want to chance loosing a trophy at the last minute I shot my buf at 1:45 PM and he placed a second solid in him right after mine and the Buf never moved from the spot. A post hunt skinning showed my 375 anchored him and the follow up was not required. I don't feel any less by having the back up, but after 68 years I know I have balls and don't have to prove it to myself or anyone else. | |||
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If either of you have hunted with Andy, and he shot without discussing it with you before hand, then the posts by the two of you are spot on! However I doubt you have hunted with him, and so couldn't know he always discusses this with his clients, before hand. He does reccomend the instant follow-up, by the client, because most client hunters have a bad habit of shooting, then admireing their first shot, instead of putting in a second immediately, on dangerous game. This is so as to intencify the shock, of the first shot effect, before the adrenlin gets going, makeing him very hard to stop. This is the problem with makeing judgements by watching films. The mundane rhetoric before most of the, rack-um, and stack-um, films is not discussed on film. This may be the case with MS as well, but I doubt it is ever discussed with him. Could be wrong however! Gentlemen, the PH has a certain responsibility to use his best judgement, where follow-up is concerned, and if there is a disagreement about it, the PH still has to make that judgement on the side of safety. SO! What I'm saying is, IMO, one should know all the cercumstances before traching a man's reputation! Andrew Dawson is one of the best PHs in Zimbabwe, IMO, and I'd hunt with him any day! My opinon for myself is, because I'm useing a double rifle, I want him to shoot, while I reload,after my forst two, which will automaticlly be fired with out exception, no matte the placement of the first shot, and if he is still coming, or going, the PH's shot, or shots are welcome. I think most experienced PHs, can read a client hunter pritty accurately, and so will discuss the back up shot before hand, especially if he thinks it might be called for with a particular client! Just one man's opinion, and not binding on anyone who disagrees! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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MACD37, I have never hunted with Andrew Dawson and I have no reason not to believe everything that you have said about him. However, I watched the movie in question as well and came away thinking that any first time buffalo hunter was pretty much going to get the automatic backup shot. I base this on the long speech that he makes on the film and this definately turned me off. Now as you say, maybe you can't just go by a movie, but he does manage to say what he wanted to say and was quite specific. Maybe you can talk him out of it, that's true, but you already know which way he leans, and that may cause some awkwardness. As I have said before, backup when necessary is expected and I do expect it if necessary next year on my first buff hunt in the Selous. But I don't want my first visual and lasting experience to be a well placed shot by me only to see the animal drop to a spine shot by the PH before I could even crank in another round. Just my personal take on it. "I envy not him that eats better meat than I do; nor him that is richer, or that wears better clothes than I do; I envy him, and him only, that kills bigger deer than I do." Izaak Walton (modified) | |||
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And you are absolutely right to expect what you want to happen, to happen on your hunt. I do too, discuss this with any PH I haven't hunted with beforwe the shooting starts. You are the client, and your wishes should be granted, as long as there is no danger to people, and the only loss is your money for the trophy fee, if the animals is lost. If hit hard, and lost he probably will not hurt some poor local coming home from a beer bust in the next village, who isn't even aware you are hunting at all, but you can't be sure of that. Like I said after I fire my first two shot, he can shoot while I reload, and I discuss this with every PH I've not hunted with. It doesn't make sense to me to not book with a safari company who has a good area for you buffalo hunt, and good infrastructure, because you don't want to set the rules with you PH from the get-go. He's not a mind reader! If you discuss this with him before hand,I don't know a PH in Africa that will not play the game the way you want, utill you screw up, then all bets are off! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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MAC, agreed and I have done this in my past hunts as well as my upcoming hunt. Maybe Andrew didn't want the impression that was given, it's just that he is the first PH I have heard say that it is his "policy" to immediately shoot if you are new/inexperienced. I agree that it should be based on the situation instead. "I envy not him that eats better meat than I do; nor him that is richer, or that wears better clothes than I do; I envy him, and him only, that kills bigger deer than I do." Izaak Walton (modified) | |||
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Gentlemen, The follwoing is an observation from Walter: "When one builds his own rifle and hunts with it. He immediately discovers that it has magical killing powers. When one designs his own wildcat, builds his own rifle, design and makes his own bullets. Then he discovers that anything he shoots just dies. It makes no difference if the bullet hits it in the right place or not. This only applies to that person. It does not apply to others shooting his rifle. I KNOW this to be true. As I have seen it with my own eyes! And even participated in proving this is true myself. When I borrow the rifle and shoot something with it. It always runs off and requires more shots. When Saeed shoots them, they just die, even with a small scratch!" "The scratch has to be in the right place Walter" "That was what my old girlfriend use to say too!" | |||
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No offence Nitro, but that doesn't actually make logical sense to me either. I have read it here before (and probably commented at that time to) but I don't get it or buy it. I haven't heard of a situation where an initial shot was fired at a buffalo whereupon it immediately charged the hunter. I'd venture to guess (and those in the know please speak up if your opinion differs), that 99 out of 100 charges occur during the follow up of a wounded (mortally or otherwise) animal. If that is the case, then it makes more sense that, on the average (I realize lots of variables come into play here) shooting at distances would have a greater chance of a poor initial shot, and therefor a greater chance of encountering a wounded animal on the follow up. I do not believe that unwounded buffalo are particularly dangerous. Sure the odd mishap may occur with unwounded buff, but it has to be the exception. So just getting fairly close to them isn't especially dangerous IMHO, although having a herd running around you in the long grass can be both nerve wracking and exhilarating. (Getting that close to elephant is another story). So, to reiterate, if unwounded buff run from you 99 out of 100 times, and if they run from you after the initial shot 99 out of 100 times, and if 99 out of 100 charges come during the follow up, I'd venture to guess that shooting them at close range is no more dangerous than shooting them at longer ranges and may in fact be less dangerous. Just a theory...please feel free to poke holes in it... Cheers, Canuck | |||
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I grow weary of the Sullivan discussions quickly but one note of interest about him...his Death by the Ton DVD was at Buzz's house in Harare last week. We watched it and I got a number of interesting comments from my PH Alan Shearing who is not a Sullivan fan (although he said that Sullivan gets into a lot of nice buffalo). He stated that Sullivan actually contacted Buzz last year to book an elephant hunt for himself! He also said something about wanting more elephant experience...but then later he cancelled and I do not know any more details. My comment was that Sullivan probably cancelled when he found out that he would be on Buzz's next video. _______________________________  | |||
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I need a translation on that last reply. You need to switch to decaf or something. _______________________________ | |||
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My "theory" is that the bull is very unlikely to charge if shot, eg at 100 metres, as you will be out of its "zone". As you mention most will run away anyway, but if you are closer and it becomes aware of you the likelihood of a charge would increase IMO. "99 out of 100 charges occur during the follow up of a wounded (mortally or otherwise) animal." There are only two choices, live and unwounded, and wounded. I don't know of any statistics either way but we all know here of cases where buffalo not having been shot by the hunter have charged and with sometimes quite aweful results. Remember a buffalo can be wounded by a lion, a snare, another buffalo etc etc. Also we have also heard of charges for no apparent reason. I too think charges are not as likely as talked about (and promoted ), but they do happen and that is why I guess a 9.3/.375 is a legislated minimum even though medium calibres will kill buffalo quite well 98% of the time.My observation (ie the "theory") has just been on experience in shooting a number of buffalo of the Aussie type. When up close, say 20 metres or less, when dropped they seem more agitated and work harder to get up, than if shot a somewhat longer ranges and left more undisturbed. Not being highly intelligent they may not KNOW they have been shot, and it is knowing the pain has been caused by humans that causes the fight reflex. JMO and maybe BS. My closest call to a buffalo charging was not a buffalo but an large Aussie scrub bull who "seemed" to turn and come running down the hill looking for whomever had just shot him twice (with a .450 no less). If I was MS I would have stepped out from behind the tree instead of just dropping him with a third, and it would have been interesting if he ran off or came on. There are a lot of reports of scrub bulls charging BTW and that is probably the highest chance of getting one. | |||
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A good read by Ron Thompson: AN INSIGHT INTO WHY DANGEROUS BIG GAME ANIMALS SOMETIMES ATTACK THE HUNTER, AND WHY, SOMETIMES, THEY DON'T. | |||
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..............HUH????????????  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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As is his usual good reading of tracks, by Canuck, yealds a well though out post, with sencable conclusions! I agree fully! I agree completely, that a full 90% of the charges one gets from any animal are the result of a screw up on the part of the shooter, wounding that animal, and the charge, if there is one, will most likely come out of the weeds he's hideing in, to try to avoid the shooter, and the follow up gets inside his comfort zone. Once in a while a charge comes from an animal you were not even aware was there, but even then, it is usually because he is either hurt, or has been harrased by Lions, and is on hightened guard! If you put the bullet where it belongs, and keep shooting as long as he is on his feet, and in sight, there is little chance of getting into a fight with a dangerous game animal. If he doe get into the thorn wounded, you have little choice other than to go in and sort him out! I also beleive you could hunt Buffalo for the rest of your life, and never experience a charge, as has been stated by those who have killed hundreds of dangerous game animals, without a problem. This is the record stated by so many prolific DG hunters, both PHs, and clients, that makes most who know the score,to be sceptics where a PH who gets 30 or 40 charges a season, on film. Maybe some are just unlucky! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Yup, Mac, I agree too. IMHO, Canuck has nailed it. The moral of this story is, as always: Make the first shot count! That is why DG is shot at close range, at least preferably. It is simply easier to hit, more certain to kill, a DG animal when you can close within less than 50 yards of his ornery hide. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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""I do not believe that unwounded buffalo are particularly dangerous."" Well-------------- The day that I arrived in Chirisa (May 11th) one of the game scouts on poacher patrol was attacked and killed by a Cape Buffalo. Apparently the attack was w/o any provocation. The details are a bit sketchy as the partner of the individual that wound up getting the horn - as so to speak - apparently totally freaked and ran. His story several days later seemed to change as to what actually happened. As near as could be determined the two were returning from poacher patrol when the Buff for no apparent reason charged and gored the individual in the groin. Unfortunately for him - he was wearing the radio clipped to his pants and the Buff departed with his pants and the radio --- both of which were found about a mile away couple days later. The other scout had to run the remaining distance to park headquarters and radio for help and a truck to extricate the wounded man. Unfortunately by the time they got a truck to him, and were in the process of taking him to medical help, he expired. An attempt was made to trak down the culprit but w/o any success so it was never really determined if the Buff was injured or just haveing a bad day. Life is tough over there! OMG!-- my bow is "pull-push feed" - how dreadfully embarrasing!!!!! | |||
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