Ray likes using antinque or vintage rifles and bullets. I like more modern stuff after the nosler partition came out in 1947 and Bitterroot (first and best bonded) in early 60's. We are the same "band of brothers" as Rusty says.

I know what works.

God bless.

RAB, No problem going shoulder to shoulder with a 250 gr/375 Bitterroot at 2950 fps. Quartering front on is easy as it just has one large leg bone. Even a 270 gr Hornady will do that!

With a hard bullet like the Bitteroot, TBBC, Swift, Barnes X you are better off trying to hit a large bone to create secondary frags. You guys are hung up on SD and momentum. SD goes out the window once the bullet expands. SD of the expanded bullet is all that matters.

Gerard knows what he is doing with the GS FN. A heavier bullet made from copper will be so long and unstable that it tumbles (turns over 180 degrees) and veers off course. this is not theory. Even the Swift 300 gr 375 at 2500 fps is so long that it tips as you can see from recovering one of these from critters. Same with 300 gr TBBC. Same with all of Saeed's Barnes X which rips off its X pentals and are bent like a bannana.

Frontal area, velocity, weight retention, penetration (how much is enough for gods sake!!!) in that order.

Andy

I pretty much agree with you Andy. While I have no experience with a fast 375, other than target shooting and load development, I do have some with a fast 338.
Several years ago I took a common 338 Win. mag to Africa and did extensive shooting on various plains game species in Zimbabwe and Namibia. I was there to evaluate bullets and their performance, as well as enjoy a good safari with friends.
After all of this ended I came away with a very low opinion of the 338, so much so that I rebarreled the rifle to 300 Win. mag!
Later, I became interested in a wildcat, the 33 G&A, which was being promoted by Ross Seyfried. I contacted him for details and eventually had one to shoot and evaluate.
Using the same bullets as before I immediately noticed a much greater effect on game. In fact, to this day I have never seen any rifle put game on the rug like this big 33 will do. It has impressed me so much that if it were legal I would hunt buffalo with it without question, taking it anyday over a 375 H&H. Which I have adequate experience with too.
What makes the difference? VELOCITY. About 300-400fps worth of it. A 250gr TBBC or Bitterroot soft point at 3100fp does things that the same bullet at 2700fps can't begin to accomplish.

Just a sidenote...

Kevin Robertson in his book "The Perfect Shot" wrote that if a 375 is used, he prefers to see it loaded to 2300 or 2400 fps for dangerous game because bullet failure is less frequent and penetration is better. The penetration bit may be counterintuitive, but I have also heard many times that penetration on the 460 wby is lacking (500 grains at 2600 fps) while penetration of the 458 lott is excellent (500 grains at 2350 fps).

500-
Having never used the 460 on game I cannot offer any opinion as to it's penetrative abilities. However, I wonder what bullets were being used? If they were conventional Hornady or Woodleigh type I woulod likely agree that penetration would suffer. Use a Swift, TBBC or similar and I would guess things might be different.
As for the 375, I don't doubt that penetration is adequate at 2400 or 2500fps, that's not really what I was saying. Using premium soft points, the "effect on game" is what suffers at those lower velocities, IMO.

Ditto John S.

Andy, maybe you got something there. Maybe this is the next step in the evolution of my thinking, but I just don't have any experience with anything lighter than 300 grains on tough game with the 375.

RAB

John,

thanks for the support.

I find myself in the akward position of being a gadfly. Did not mean to stir up a hornets nest. Just sharing what works for me.

The 375 improved has a combination of speed and frontal area that just works. Think this is true of all the fast medium bores including 358 Norma.

I have both of Dr. Robertson's books and all I will say is that he has come to the party pretty late re. premium bullets.

Ray had an interesting observaiton about the 416 Weatherby being no better than the 416 Remington. Both use the 400 gr Swift, which is an excellent bullet. George Hoffman has a bunch of them he told me, and they measure 80 caliber and 90% retention recovered from buffalo.

The thing about the Swift is that it stops expanding at the partition. The Bitteroot, Grizzly (when they were available), and Kodiak all keep expanding the faster you push them. They have such a strong soft jacket that the mushroom gets larger rather than swept backwards like a badmitton birdie (like the 375 Woodleigh does). I believe that this is responsible for their amazing killing power.

This is not mere hyperboly (like John Taylor said of the original 375). I shot my feedlot steers and bison at 10-30 feet. They were dead (brain death) by the time I could walk briskly up to them. You could touch the eye and no reflex. This was true of both spine and, incredibly, heart shots.

This is why I just cant get excited about the performance of a solid or high penetration SP where the animal runs 75 yards, needs a finishing shot or two, and everyone considers that a success?

I would be the first to admit that what I did was not hunting. In a hunt the animal might move unexpectadly and your perfect heart or sholder shot turns into a hip or worse. Still, I have seen my 375 make hash out of a femur in cases like this (American elk), and have aquaintences who have done same with buffalo. The bullets we are talking about handle this situation just fine.

Thank you all for listening politely to my observations on 20 + years of slaughtering steers. Take what you will with you into the feild.

Andy

Firstly, I don't have any experience shooting big animals. However the number of kangaroos and pigs I have shot over 30 years is well into the thousands and with a very wide range of calibers.

With lead core bullets that will expand, my experience has been that maximum killing power seems to come with calibers that do around 2800 to 3000 f/s. There seems to be a drop off once you get into the 3200 f/s plus. For example, anyone who has shot a lot of roos with both the 218 Bee and 222 Rem will tell you that the 218 Bee is better. I mention the 218 Bee because many Australians used them on Martini .310 conversions, mainly the 218 Improved Bee.

We also saw similar with the 303/25 as compared to the 243 and also the 303/270 as compared to the 270 Winchester.

The 22 Hornet is far behind the 218 Improved Bee.

Thus I am not at all suprised by Andy's and John S's comments on killing power and the 375 and 375 improved as the velocities fit in. That is, the 375 H&H is the big 22 Hornet and the 375 Imp is the big 218 Imp Bee.

An advantage of the 375 Imp that I don't think was mentioned was suitable powders. The 4530 powder is too slow for the 375 H&H unless you like very compressed loads. That is, the 375 Improved has a velocity advantage over the 375 H&H that is greater than ther difference in case capacities would indicate.

Having said all of that, I think if the rifle is to be used a lot and using the rifle involves precision shooting, then the recoil level of the 375 H&H and in particular with ballistics of the original Kynoch loads, is about the maximum recoil.

In summary and for most shooters, if velocity is to be increased and recoil kept reasonable, then the 338 bore is the answer if the rifle is to be used a lot.

I am writing this from an Australian's perspective. In other words most people will not be able to shoot through the day and go spotlighting that night with a 375 Improved loaded to the hilt. I can absolutely assure you that it can't be done with a 416, but you can do it with a 375 loaded with quicker powders that approximate original Kynoch ballistics.

It is worth remembering that the 375 H&H was introduced at a time when a lot of shooting was done.

Mike.

Just curious...what about calibers like the new .338 Ultra Mag (just got one) w/ 250gr Nosler Part. @ 2950 and the .444 Marlin (.300gr UCSP@2200)? What game would they best be suited for? I know a rep. from Remington cleanly took a Cape Buff. with the .338, but I want your guys' opinions as well.

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God Bless and Shoot Straight

I agree with Andy and JohnS and Mike on the subject of killing power when it comes to lighter animals than Cape Buffalo and Elephant....

Velocity and expanding bullets have little if any more effect on these two animals than solids in my experience other than that 40 to 50 yd. run after the hit, wherein a soft, if "everything" else goes well, will give you a 20 yd. run and less blood trail or in other words will kill perhaps twice as fast, but you seldom get exit wounds with expanding bullets that break the shoulder, and the faster you drive them the less likely you are to get an exit, and your chances of bullet failure increase.. I still like the solid except in herd hunting wherein I will use a soft, such as the Woodliegh or swift.

I firmly believe if you want to kill these two animals quicker you go to a bigger bore diameter, in fact I have no doubt about that. and the soft vs. solid controversy becomes less important as the bore diameter increases...

I realize that the soft can produce some lightening strike kills, but it can also fail and does on ocassion, yes even swifts...The solid is like the turtle and the hair, it just does yeoman like work and dependability is its middle name..

Keep in mind that most Buffalo just don't die like some expect them to, and under some circumstances they can show a tenacity for life beyond description...

I also believe these animals are much tougher than domestic raised Buffalo and cattle, probably because they are tuned up all the time and excreating adrnaline inasmuch as if its not Lions, poachers, or man it mother nature in one degree or another trying to contantly continue the cycle of the survival of the fitest....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I would like to create a "coalition" of velocity, mass, and bore size. I have reconsidered all this input and I am stuck on the 300 grain bullet weight for the 375 of whatever ilk. One high velocity and one heavy bullet for everything. The only thing that changes is the softness of the bullet with the softness of the game. KISS principle. That is the whole rationale for the 375, IMHO. Of course there are lots of different ways to skin a cat.

BTW, Ray, you are to be commended on the prolific output of posts. No doubt you are the most entertaining guru on this website.
You even have me thinking about 450/400 3" NE doubles and 404 Jeffery Mausers...I must be getting old fast.

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RAB

RAB,
Don't fight it, its gonna happen and considering the alternative, age ain't all that bad.....

A 450-400-3" and a 404 Jefferys makes growing old a little easier...Were born bald and naked and we leave bald and naked. We have a pacifier when born and a 450-400 when we're old...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com