Folks, I'm currently sitting (figuratively of course) on half a crate full of tanned elephant hide that just came in from my last trip to Africa. Obviously I'll be keeping some of this for myself and having some articles made from it, but if I would like to resell to a local bootmaker or similar is that going to be a problem? Is the trade of this stuff regulated in any way? It's already tanned and good to go.

Yup it is regulated and you're not permitted to sell it I'm afraid.

If you check your import paperwork, I think you'll find it all there.

you cannot sell it but you can gift it ...

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:
you cannot sell it but you can gift it ...

Correct you can give away, but also, you cannot "BARTER" with it.

I'd recommend you stick to the rules because if you get caught 'giving it away in exchange for anything' you'd find yourself up to you neck in the smelly brown stuff.

Can the recipient of a gift of hide pay for his shipping costs?

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:
you cannot sell it but you can gift it ...

What if they give you a somewhat contemporeous gift of cash?

This might be of interest:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/6431024521

quote:

but if I would like to resell to a local bootmaker or similar is that going to be a problem? Is the trade of this stuff regulated in any way? It's already tanned and good to go.

...perhaps you could establish a "boot-making" business, sub-contract the work to a boot-maker (or similar), and then sell the elephant-hide boots yourself or through another sub-contracting arrangement...

quote:

Originally posted by JHunter:
...perhaps you could establish a "boot-making" business, sub-contract the work to a boot-maker (or similar), and then sell the elephant-hide boots yourself or through another sub-contracting arrangement...

You'd still be selling the elephant hide, just in a different format.

The CITES sport hunting quota was given for hunters to import their sport hunted trophies...... if people start buggering about with that, then sooner or later, all sport hunted quota will be withdrawn for everyone.

Also look at the penalties and then ask youself if it's really worth a few hundred dollars.

You'd still be selling the elephant hide, just in a different format.

The CITES sport hunting quota was given for hunters to import their sport hunted trophies...... if people start buggering about with that, then sooner or later, all sport hunted quota will be withdrawn for everyone.

Also look at the penalties and then ask youself if it's really worth a few hundred dollars.[/QUOTE]


...fair enough...the law's the law...but i note some boot-makers - including a hand-crafted leather sporting accessories company at the past sci reno convention - were selling elephant-hide items...

Yeah! Where does Russell Mocassin or similiar outfits get their elephant hide for retail sale?

Mark

There are elephant hide wallets and belts offered frequently in the AR classifieds, as well.

Guys,

firstly, the question (effectively) is, 'can a sport hunted elephant product be legally sold or traded?'

The answer to that is no it can't. If you doubt me, I suggest you either ask USF&WS or look at what's written on the import permit.

Secondly, if you're asking how commercial companies can sell elephant hide boots or other elephant products?

I suggest you ask them that because I have no idea how they do it..... but I'd be very suprised indeed if they tell you they buy sport hunted elephant hides because it's illegal.

Whilst I'm not suggesting any particular company would do this, an awful lot of small items one sees for sale (here at least) that claims to be elephant is actually cow hide stamped and coloured to look like elephant hide.

The reason I know that is because I know a couple of guys that do it. As I understand it all they do is put it through a large patterned roller..... I'd guess, under pressure.

Thanks for the info guys. That's what I was looking for. Wasn't what I was HOPING for, but had already head something to the effect. Worst case, maybe we can have some stuff made, like boots and the like and do a "keep the change" arrangement. Who knows. I guess I could always have the truck re-upholstered lol.

quote:

Originally posted by Kingfisher:
I guess I could always have the truck re-upholstered lol.

Elephant covered car seats look bloody nice.... but Christ alone knows what happens when you want to sell the truck!



How silly is it that most parts of Africa have a massive elephant overpopulation problem and yet there's no trade in elephant products without special permit allowed?

Interestingly, perhaps alarmingly, A USF&W rep at an SCI convention assured my that elephant tusks could be resold once legally inported into the USA, but could not be re-exported.

Never having seen the import documents it seems surprising that this would not apply to hides.

Or maybe it does not apply at all. Yikes.

Les

you all are clueless.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
you all are clueless.

Possibly true, but not very helpful.

Other than by the occasional special permit that is issued by CITES (voted on at the convention) to Govts/game deps to individual countries such as happened a year or two ago with (if I remember correctly) Namibia, SA Bots and I think, Zim. ALL commercial trade in pre or post ban elephant products is forbidden.

Those especially licenced sales are, to the best of my knowledge all by auction.

I think mammoth ivory etc can be traded under certain circumstances but that of course is mammoth and not elephant.

Also pre ban CITES I can sometimes/usually/often be moved across international borders if you have the correct paperwork and you can only get that if you can prove the provenance.

I've done that when I moved a tiger skin from SA to the UK and also when I moved a tigress skull from the UK to SA.

For one thing you don't want to ask any USFW folks anything at any show because they are just there for props and in my experience do not know anything but offer ill-advised and incorrect information. I suppose they are more worried about that new black ninja outfit on sale they have been eyeballing at boogiemanoutfits.com.

You need to call USFW and talk to the head honcho. He will tell you that you can sell your hide as it is not CITES regulated. It is the ivory that is regulated that you cannot sell or barter but can give away.

But call as I could be wrong. Taking legal advice from a bunch of dummies, like me, on some hunting forum doesn't sound like a very good plan.

Will,

I guarantee you're wrong buddy. The whole animal and any part thereof is CITES I not just the tusks.

Go look at the CITES website for confirmation.

If it were just the tusks, this guy here: http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/6431024521 wouldn't have been prosecuted and found guilty.

I do appreciate in this case it was an Indian elephant but it was still on the same schedule and the same rules apply.

Clue us in. Or, if you can't then I'd advise all of you to plan on attending the Continuing Legal Education Seminar to be held again next year at the SCI Convention where legal representatives of SCI, USFWS, Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies and others are in attendance to address issues like these. They discussed this very issue and that of gifting, inheriting, selling, bartering parts of Cites animals. I believe that Shakari is right on. An elephant specimen under Appendix I or II that has been brought into the country under the category of a sport-hunted trophy (i.e. including raw or processed elephant hide) may only be used for personal, non-commercial purposes. This means no selling, bartering, or any donations with tax benefits being gained. To quote from the materials of the CLE Seminar this year: "Regardless of whether the elephant trophy came from an Appendix I or II population, trophies can only be imported for personal use (non-commercial) and therefore, cannot be sold or enter[ed] into commerce." "The trophy could be given away or bequeathed to someone, but not sold or entered into commerce." As stated above, sport hunted trophies include hide, tusks, etc. etc.

If there was a way to legally trade in any elephant hide or any other part thereof, I'd have been trading in it for the last umpteen years.... because the profits would be obscene.

Sadly, there's not..... however, it does make you wonder why on earth not!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Yeah! Where does Russell Mocassin or similiar outfits get their elephant hide for retail sale?

Mark

Anyone who knows anything about shoes knows that they're not made from real elephant hide. They're made from old mother-in-law hide.

Jorge400,

Damn! I knew there was an easy answer. Thanks for clearing that up.

Mark

OLD MOTHER INLAW dam that would hurt your ears to walk in those boot. she would still be bitching tanned or not

Where do y'all think cow elephant, and PAC elehant hide goes to.

Russell, and others buy legal, commercialy sold elephant hide.

That may be true, as I have a new pair of Russell Mocs that I just picked up at the SCI Convention that are elephant, topped with Alligator. But, any regs that may deal with commercially sold hides vs sport hunted trophy elephant hide are not the same. I also have a pair of Nocona cowboy boots that are elephant hide. However, they both contain a stamped number inside each boot regarding the elephant hide that was used. And, I believe that the specific issue here dealt with only sport-hunted elephant hide.

Take it and have something nice made for yourself. It makes real nice looking gun cases, and I have seen some end tables with elephant hide covers that are beautiful! Inlays on pedestals for your taxidermy mounts are another good use! You can't sell it

You can not sell it, just like you can't re-export ivory once it is here. It is all clear as mud in the CITES Regulations, 50 CFR 23. Email the following if you really want to pursue answers: managementauthority@fws.gov or look at http://fws.gov/international.

My hide just left SFO yesterday, on its way here to the taxidermist and my wife has decided on a two-tone leather sofa (gray and brown), and I get the left overs!

Note the first para of the executive summary of the top link here: fficial&client=firefox-a" target="_blank">http://www.google.co.za/search...ial&client=firefox-a

Which says:

The Asian Elephant Elephas maximus was listed on Appendix I of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) at the first Conference of the Parties (CoP1) in 1976. At the same time, the African Elephant Loxodonta africana was placed on CITES Appendix II, but with the rapid decline in wild populations during the 1970s and 1980s, was up-listed to CITES Appendix I in 1989 – thereby affecting a ban on all commercial trade of elephants, their products and derivatives.

Note also that they discuss elephant PRODUCTS not just tusks here: http://www.cites.org/eng/prog/mike_etis.shtml

Note also the PROPOSAL to change the rules to allow commercial trade in elephant products here: http://www.cites.org/common/co...rops/ZA-elephant.pdf

alternatively, just visit the CITES website where (if you can find it!) you'll find it spelled out in detail.

I must confess I checked the regs hadn't changed just a few weeks ago for a smallish book I'm working on!

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
That may be true, as I have a new pair of Russell Mocs that I just picked up at the SCI Convention that are elephant, topped with Alligator. But, any regs that may deal with commercially sold hides vs sport hunted trophy elephant hide are not the same. I also have a pair of Nocona cowboy boots that are elephant hide. However, they both contain a stamped number inside each boot regarding the elephant hide that was used. And, I believe that the specific issue here dealt with only sport-hunted elephant hide.

Correct the rules for sport hunted elephant hide is different, that is the point of my post.

Others asked where commercial companies get their elephant hides.

I have also seen elephant hair bracelets that were for sale at DSC conficated by Federal Agents.

Giraffe hair bracelets on the other hand were perfectly legal to sale...

Guys,

As has been said, the issue here related to sport hunted elephant products.

However,

Read the links I posted. I think you'll find that with the exception of the one off sales granted by special permission of CITES (cop) ALL trade in ALL elephant products is illegal no matter whether they're sport hunted or culled and no matter whether they're pre or post ban.

As to how a company can sell elephant skin products, it's probably best you ask them that particular question. I really have no idea how they do it other than to assume they buy the skin at the one off auctions.

As to numbers stamped on boots. I think you'll find that only proves the company has a set of stamps.

Guys...under CITES Zimbabwe is permitted to sell raw Elephant hide but not manufactured products!!!!!

Right after COP10 in Harare we had a bunch of guys from the states and Japan comming to buy our raw hides. (Much to the extreme anoyance of John Rice at Courtney boots). - Yup a US boot maker can buy hide in zim and make boots but a local bootmaker cannot even sell you a pair of ele hide boots to take home...

Correct. Zimbabwe was permitted to sell Raw elephant hide only ofter the !997 CITES conference.

As to how this happened...

The Zimbabwe position on down listing our elephant population to Appendix II was drafted by Dr Cecil Muchena and myself. It was presented along with Botswana’s proposal by Dr Milan Lindique of Namibia.

Between the time when the draft was presented and the final decision written up, the Zimbabwe proposal was altered, to the detriment of local industry.

Willas Makombe, Acting Director of National Parks was paid off. I just wish I knew who by. In his fight to try and save himself from dismissal from the Civil service three years later this one was of the actions that came back to bite him.

As is so usually the case, the man who accepted the bribe is now destitute (and if he was on fire, I wouldn’t piss on him to put it out) but the man who bribed him has got away with it- presumably made a killing and in his own small way helped keep Zimbabwe’s industry and development down.

Hopefully Willas will become so desperate for something to eat he will write a ‘tell all’ book or sell the information on this and several other sordid little exercises that most of us ex officers would dearly love to know.

I've got to say I reckon the CITES rules in general and their website in particular is a complete super mega bugly stuff up but how does that tie in with the original 89(?) proposal/ban and also the links I posted that say all trade is embargoed?

It could be that Zim has some kind of special permit but as far as I know, those are only granted at the COPS as one off permissions.

Like I said earlier, How silly is it that most parts of Africa have a massive elephant overpopulation problem and yet there's no trade in elephant products without special permit allowed?

In terms of the 1997 downlisting of the Zimbabwe elephant population they were allowed a one off sale of the stockpile to Japan (this has been revisited with another sale permited and china allowed to particiapte) but also unretricted trade in raw elephant hide.

Steve...check under Appendix II listings...Technically Zimbabwe is not subject to a CITES imposed limitation on the number of elephats it can export to trophy hunters but we have always stuck with the 400 that CITES permitted prior to the population being downlisted 'to show good faith' or some other BS

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
In terms of the 1997 downlisting of the Zimbabwe elephant population they were allowed a one off sale of the stockpile to Japan (this has been revisited with another sale permited and china allowed to particiapte) but also unretricted trade in raw elephant hide.

Steve...check under Appendix II listings...Technically Zimbabwe is not subject to a CITES imposed limitation on the number of elephats it can export to trophy hunters but we have always stuck with the 400 that CITES permitted prior to the population being downlisted 'to show good faith' or some other BS

How fucking ridiculous is that! - They introduce the blanket ban and then allow sale of hide but not tusk. That entire ban was ridiculous from day one and is no less ridiculous 20 odd years later.

To say nothing of unlimited sport quota for one country but not for others where they share the same essential populations.

Ah well, all the bleating in the world ain't gonna change it........

I think that the number stamped in the boots has something to do with the use of the elephant hide, as all of my other Nocona Cowboy boots with other exotic leathers have no numbers stamped in them. But, what the numbers were actually for in regards to the ele hide I don't know. Maybe it's Shakari's telephone or cell number!