Asking members here how common this is. Currently enquiring about hunts and costs in Africa. I have done 4 hunts in Africa. In one concession where I am considering hunting both DG and Plains Game I am told ".......... concession require a 50% non refundable deposit for plains games" I am surprised to say the least. I don't believe I have encountered this kind of non-refundable deposit before. Have I been inattentive and just missed this elsewhere ? Is this something relatively new starting to crop up ? Would appreciate comments. Thankyou.

My only experiences with prepaid, nonrefundable licenses / trophy fees were in Ethiopia and Moz.

Seems like Moz required a license before and the TF when you killed. Ethiopia was all in, up front.

Everywhere else, 20 odd safaris, pay up when you're done.

Find a different concession, 50% deposit I can live with, non refundable no way. I can understand an outfitter that keeps a portion of the deposit if you do a late cancellation, or apply it to a future hunt. Shit happens, when I had my company up and running I can not tell you the times I had to cancel a vacation. My wife always joked when work got slow, "Just plan a vacation and you will get busy". If your using a booking agent read their fine print, some can have stiff deposit forfeiture penalties also.

What Gundog 64 said....

The whole notion of per capita trophy fees is that you pay only for what you kill or wound.

That is the international hunting market standard.

I have pre-paid my expected trophy fees, but never on a non-refundable basis.

If this deal is truly based on pre-paid, non-refundable trophy fees, no matter whether one succeeds or fails, then I would hunt with someone else, or elsewhere entirely.

Non refundable trophy fees/

Tell them to stick it where the sun never shines!

I have seen something similar in Botswana.

The client has an enormous choice today.

Don't support anything that looks shady to you.

Remember he NEEDS you.

You do NOT need him.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The client has an enormous choice today.

Don't support anything that looks shady to you.

Remember he NEEDS you.

You do NOT need him.

Unless he is the SCI or DSC or any other club's Outfitter of the Year, of course.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The client has an enormous choice today.

Don't support anything that looks shady to you.

Remember he NEEDS you.

You do NOT need him.

Unless he is the SCI or DSC or any other club's Outfitter of the Year, of course.

Hahahaha!

Then it means AVOID AT ANY COST!

.

Grant hi. Not sure I understand you correctly they want you to prepay the plains game trophy fees upfront on a non refundable basis or they want you to pay the day fees 50 % up front non refundable ?

Either way I would tell then to take a hike.

As others have said there are so many offers out there that you can pick and choose ....

.

To all gents, including you of course Charlie, thankyou for your suggestions, and comments which confirm the general trophy fees "system" I am familiar with and was employed on my few hunts to date ( except Cameroon ). In this case the outfitters advice seems so out of step I am somewhat mystified.
I should point out the advice was sent by an admin manager, and here is the actual wording "Please note ( concession ) require a 50% non refundable deposit for plains game" and I responded with questions but would like to hear from the outfitter himself on this. So the way I read this is that they are asking for 50% pre-payment of the Plains Game trophy fees which is not refundable. I have no issue with full trophy fee payment for wounded and lost game but this request is something I've not encountered before and my instinct in this case makes me wary.

I would say there are lots of opportunities out there with no strings attached.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I would say there are lots of opportunities out there with no strings attached.

Andrew,

It has been my experience that honest people do not take others for a ride.

Only crooks do.

And any outfit asking me to pay non refundable trophy fees in advance is run by crooks!

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The client has an enormous choice today.

Don't support anything that looks shady to you.

Remember he NEEDS you.

You do NOT need him.

Unless he is the SCI or DSC or any other club's Outfitter of the Year, of course.

100%

I've done many, many trips abroad. Only two were "never go back" First was TZ with Federico Gelinni. He was SCI outfitter or PH of the year one time. It was an absolute shit-show.

Second was the fishing trip I just got back from in Brazil. Fishing was pretty good, but it was the most disorganized goat-rope I've ever seen.

Very strange requirement. What country is this?

I’m not positive but is this not policy in Nyakasanga in Zim. I garnered this through hunting reports.

How can you be expected to pay for something you may never see??

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
How can you be expected to pay for something you may never see??

It is the new WOKE hunting outfitters.

They are so stupid, they think everyone they deal with is as stupid as they are.

I’ve never paid an upfront trophy fee, and won’t. There are way too many reputable outfitters in Africa to choose from.

Gents,
Again, thankyou for the ongoing comments and further questions posted here. I've decided I'll wait until I've heard back from the outfits owner(s) in hope the matter is resolved. Afterwards I'll post an update here.

Saeed, this just couldn't be a new "Woke" standard. Yes, lots of crazy stuff around the world these days but this would be completely over the edge. No way we've gone that far, yet.

In 2012, we went to Botswana for elephants . We were offered some PG. I was interested in red lechwe. We would have had to pay the various government fees up front . They were non-refundable. This was the government not the outfitter.

Could it be something like this?

In Moz. I believe that you nominate the species you want to hunt and need a permit for each prior to arrival.This is not refundable.

If you take that animal you then pay the balance.

With apologies to all the great operators who post and follow here, this is a buyers market. That is the reality.

quote:

Originally posted by crane:
With apologies to all the great operators who post and follow here, this is a buyers market. That is the reality.

You right of course.

And the buyer makes his choice.

Sadly, some buyers are easily led astray, or we would have shady operators.

I would never pay a "non-refundable" trophy fee up front as it signals one of three things to me -- either it's canned and a sure thing, they will put you on any specimen regardless of trophy quality, or they don't expect to actually shoot one. All are bad to me.

I wire money in advance for anticipated trophy fees all the time, and we settle up after the safari. Usually I send more money when I get home if all goes well. Sometimes, I leave any balance as a deposit for a future hunt. But I wouldn't deal with someone who wanted the money up front and no accountability.

Further info and answers have now been received and it's time to update my earlier posts.
OK, so this came up around discussions with CMS for a hunt in Nyakasanga. Under consideration is, primarily Eland, and Tuskless Elephant and a couple of other Plains Game species that quota might allow. As I said earlier I received from their admin this advice: "Please note Nyakasanga require a 50% non refundable deposit for plains game". ( Note: Plains Game only. Not applicable to DG as far as I understand ). I have hunted twice before with CMS and not encountered such a condition and admit I reacted, probably over reacted, and made my feelings known and also posted the original question here that got this thread going. Both Buzz and Myles have been busy with clients but both responded with insights into circumstances with Nyakasanga that would impel a non-refundable component of a trophy fee. I understood but didn't agree with it and Buzz also noted the tone of comments posted here by other AR members. I think it's accurate to say Buzz and Myles have reconsidered in this case and to their credit are now doing the right thing. For myself I am now happy with the arrangements in place. I could say more but don't wish to speak for CMS. I advised Buzz I would update this thread and suggested he might like to add additional info that would clarify their future Nyakasanga Plains Game trophy policy.

quote:

Originally posted by 30.06king:
Further info and answers have now been received and it's time to update my earlier posts.
OK, so this came up around discussions with CMS for a hunt in Nyakasanga. Under consideration is, primarily Eland, and Tuskless Elephant and a couple of other Plains Game species that quota might allow. As I said earlier I received from their admin this advice: "Please note Nyakasanga require a 50% non refundable deposit for plains game". ( Note: Plains Game only. Not applicable to DG as far as I understand ). I have hunted twice before with CMS and not encountered such a condition and admit I reacted, probably over reacted, and made my feelings known and also posted the original question here that got this thread going. Both Buzz and Myles have been busy with clients but both responded with insights into circumstances with Nyakasanga that would impel a non-refundable component of a trophy fee. I understood but didn't agree with it and Buzz also noted the tone of comments posted here by other AR members. I think it's accurate to say Buzz and Myles have reconsidered in this case and to their credit are now doing the right thing. For myself I am now happy with the arrangements in place. I could say more but don't wish to speak for CMS. I advised Buzz I would update this thread and suggested he might like to add additional info that would clarify their future Nyakasanga Plains Game trophy policy.

There is no circumstances in hell that would make me accept to pay a non refundable deposit for trophy fees.

I have very simple rules in making business decisions, they MUST be fair and unambiguous.

Anything else, I shy away from.

And this condition is a most definitely a deal breaker.

If they insist, Nyakasanga would be the last place I would hunt on.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by 30.06king:
Further info and answers have now been received and it's time to update my earlier posts.
OK, so this came up around discussions with CMS for a hunt in Nyakasanga. Under consideration is, primarily Eland, and Tuskless Elephant and a couple of other Plains Game species that quota might allow. As I said earlier I received from their admin this advice: "Please note Nyakasanga require a 50% non refundable deposit for plains game". ( Note: Plains Game only. Not applicable to DG as far as I understand ). I have hunted twice before with CMS and not encountered such a condition and admit I reacted, probably over reacted, and made my feelings known and also posted the original question here that got this thread going. Both Buzz and Myles have been busy with clients but both responded with insights into circumstances with Nyakasanga that would impel a non-refundable component of a trophy fee. I understood but didn't agree with it and Buzz also noted the tone of comments posted here by other AR members. I think it's accurate to say Buzz and Myles have reconsidered in this case and to their credit are now doing the right thing. For myself I am now happy with the arrangements in place. I could say more but don't wish to speak for CMS. I advised Buzz I would update this thread and suggested he might like to add additional info that would clarify their future Nyakasanga Plains Game trophy policy.

There is no circumstances in hell that would make me accept to pay a non refundable deposit for trophy fees.

I have very simple rules in making business decisions, they MUST be fair and unambiguous.

Anything else, I shy away from.

And this condition is a most definitely a deal breaker.

If they insist, Nyakasanga would be the last place I would hunt on.

This sad tale is further to the death knell I heard earlier this year and now feel in my bones for this outfit.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by 30.06king:
Further info and answers have now been received and it's time to update my earlier posts.
OK, so this came up around discussions with CMS for a hunt in Nyakasanga. Under consideration is, primarily Eland, and Tuskless Elephant and a couple of other Plains Game species that quota might allow. As I said earlier I received from their admin this advice: "Please note Nyakasanga require a 50% non refundable deposit for plains game". ( Note: Plains Game only. Not applicable to DG as far as I understand ). I have hunted twice before with CMS and not encountered such a condition and admit I reacted, probably over reacted, and made my feelings known and also posted the original question here that got this thread going. Both Buzz and Myles have been busy with clients but both responded with insights into circumstances with Nyakasanga that would impel a non-refundable component of a trophy fee. I understood but didn't agree with it and Buzz also noted the tone of comments posted here by other AR members. I think it's accurate to say Buzz and Myles have reconsidered in this case and to their credit are now doing the right thing. For myself I am now happy with the arrangements in place. I could say more but don't wish to speak for CMS. I advised Buzz I would update this thread and suggested he might like to add additional info that would clarify their future Nyakasanga Plains Game trophy policy.

There is no circumstances in hell that would make me accept to pay a non refundable deposit for trophy fees.

I have very simple rules in making business decisions, they MUST be fair and unambiguous.

Anything else, I shy away from.

And this condition is a most definitely a deal breaker.

If they insist, Nyakasanga would be the last place I would hunt on.

This sad tale is further to the death knell I heard earlier this year and now feel in my bones for this outfit.

I have seen it many times, in all sorts of businesses.

Someone takes over, who has absolutely no business sense, and ruins it for everyone there.

We are very lucky to have a very large hunting industry, and an incredible number of very straight forward, honest, outfitters who will be very happy to host you for a great hunt.

Go and join them, they deserve your money.

And let the brainless idiots go bankrupt!

I have absolutely no sympathy with people who think they can have you over a barrel!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by 30.06king:
Further info and answers have now been received and it's time to update my earlier posts.
OK, so this came up around discussions with CMS for a hunt in Nyakasanga. Under consideration is, primarily Eland, and Tuskless Elephant and a couple of other Plains Game species that quota might allow. As I said earlier I received from their admin this advice: "Please note Nyakasanga require a 50% non refundable deposit for plains game". ( Note: Plains Game only. Not applicable to DG as far as I understand ). I have hunted twice before with CMS and not encountered such a condition and admit I reacted, probably over reacted, and made my feelings known and also posted the original question here that got this thread going. Both Buzz and Myles have been busy with clients but both responded with insights into circumstances with Nyakasanga that would impel a non-refundable component of a trophy fee. I understood but didn't agree with it and Buzz also noted the tone of comments posted here by other AR members. I think it's accurate to say Buzz and Myles have reconsidered in this case and to their credit are now doing the right thing. For myself I am now happy with the arrangements in place. I could say more but don't wish to speak for CMS. I advised Buzz I would update this thread and suggested he might like to add additional info that would clarify their future Nyakasanga Plains Game trophy policy.

There is no circumstances in hell that would make me accept to pay a non refundable deposit for trophy fees.

I have very simple rules in making business decisions, they MUST be fair and unambiguous.

Anything else, I shy away from.

And this condition is a most definitely a deal breaker.

If they insist, Nyakasanga would be the last place I would hunt on.

This sad tale is further to the death knell I heard earlier this year and now feel in my bones for this outfit.

I have seen it many times, in all sorts of businesses.

Someone takes over, who has absolutely no business sense, and ruins it for everyone there.

We are very lucky to have a very large hunting industry, and an incredible number of very straight forward, honest, outfitters who will be very happy to host you for a great hunt.

Go and join them, they deserve your money.

And let the brainless idiots go bankrupt!

I have absolutely no sympathy with people who think they can have you over a barrel!

Exactly.

One can only be responsible for his own behavior, and one must always do the right thing.

No excuses.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
...

This sad tale is further to the death knell I heard earlier this year and now feel in my bones for this outfit.

That outfit is already sold out for most of next year, doubt they are having issues.

I wonder if you would be still be so bitter if you had not MISSED the buffalo you shot at on day 6 of your hunt and then decided to quit on day 9? Also, if you had a shot at your quarry, how could you blame the outfitter after quitting a few days later?

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
...

This sad tale is further to the death knell I heard earlier this year and now feel in my bones for this outfit.

That outfit is already sold out for most of next year, doubt they are having issues.

I wonder if you would be still be so bitter if you had not MISSED the buffalo you shot at on day 6 of your hunt and then decided to quit on day 9? Also, if you had a shot at your quarry, how could you blame the outfitter after quitting a few days later?

I certainly hope they do NOT have issues, and continue to provide their usual excellent service to hunters.

But, let us not forget what brought this all up.

An unpopular decision, which I hope others can learn from.

Folks,

In reading this thread what I glean from it is just that there was a miscommunication. Perhaps CMS should have explained in their contract why the up front partial trophy payments were required. Also I think if a client has an issue or question for their safari operator they should deal with the operator first even if it takes some time for the operator to get back to them. AR is a good source of info but folks can jump to the wrong conclusion when they don't have all the facts.

These things can reflect badly on the operator's reputation even if the client was just trying to get some clarification by inquiring on AR. As we see here in this thread folks were willing to believe CMS was doing the client wrong.

Kind of on the same vein I think folks often think if they have hunted in X,Y,Z country that all safari costs should reflect the same structure everywhere as it did in the country or countries they have hunted in. I represent safari operators in 9 African countries and I can assure you each one has it's own quirks as to payments.

Finally if a hunter doesn't like the details of a hunt he can just book with someone else. There are many excellent operators out there that need clients.

Cheers,

Mark

To me, unrefundable TF’s are not a deal breaker, but deception is.

Sounds like in this case, CMS got some negative feedback, and changed a business practice. I don’t see a deception here.

From what I’ve heard about CMS, I actually would tend to think that if you went there and hunted hard, and no zebra or whatever were seen that they would give you the money back- Buzz said that these were a “sure thing” if you hunted them, and they got burned saving quota for a late hunt who decided then they didn’t want to hunt them. Sounds like a client issue.

CMS have always had excellent reputation.

They still do, as far as I am concerned.

But, I would NOT book a hunt with them if they insisted on paying non refundable trophy fees in advance.

This is my own policy, no one else.

CMS is a reputable company. I now understand why they have this. It's reasonable and fair. They've had clients reserve quota animals, and as a reputable outfit, they don't oversell, so if a client shows up and says he has no interest in said quota animal, they are screwed. Client should have a downside.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
CMS is a reputable company. I now understand why they have this. It's reasonable and fair. They've had clients reserve quota animals, and as a reputable outfit, they don't oversell, so if a client shows up and says he has no interest in said quota animal, they are screwed. Client should have a downside.

Yes.

THE client.

But no other clients.

I hate collective punishment.

Never worked.

Never will.

I also don't like being treated like a cheat or a crook.

That's what these kinds of private sector policies do. I will not hunt with any outfitter who insists on them.

Good to see that public pressure was sufficient to cause the reversal of such a policy in this case.

Public sector regulation is different, as the outfitter has no choice. The government sees such policies as money-making opportunities and simply imposes them.

I will not hunt in any country, state or province that imposes such policies.

If more hunters followed that approach, governments might be economically pressured to reverse them.

Although I doubt it.

Government fish and game departments are not as susceptible to adverse economic consequences as are outfitters in the private sector.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I also don't like being treated like a cheat or a crook.

That's what these kinds of private sector policies do. I will not hunt with any outfitter who insists on them.

Good to see that public pressure was sufficient to cause the reversal of such a policy in this case.

Public sector regulation is different, as the outfitter has no choice. The government sees such policies as money-making opportunities and simply imposes them.

I will not hunt in any country, state or province that imposes such policies.

If more hunters followed that approach, governments might be economically pressured to reverse them.

Although I doubt it.

Government fish and game departments are not as susceptible to adverse economic consequences as are outfitters in the private sector.

Exactly.

Let me tell our story with the Seychelles.

We used to go there every year, sometimes twice a year.

We used to go with several families, and the kids especially loved it.

Then the silly charges started.

There was a small reef, where we enjoyed going to snorkel.

Been there many times, no hassle, no charges.

Then one day we arrive there and we see some official boat.

Which approached us as we were getting ready to go in.

They demanded $25 per person, as that reef was declared a national park, and charges must be paid.

I had a bit of an argument with them.

Told them we had no money, as we came to swim, and they can come to our island hotel and collect it from the management - I had no intention of paying, and told the hotel to sort it it out.

Another thing they introduced was anchoring fees.

If you are in a sail boat, and anchor off an island, you have to pay it.

Never happened before.

The clincher was we went to an island that has some rare birds and trees.

We were charged to go on it, not a problem.

But, we were forced to hire a "guide".

You have to pay him, and also pay his entrance fee.

That was our last trip to the Seychelles.

We went to the Maldives instead.

Where they are much better attuned to paying visitors.

On the map, there was an island also declared a national park, and no visitor is allowed because of some rare birds.

I asked at our resort if it was possible to go.

The hotel manager contacted the government, and they kindly gave us a 12 hour permit.

From 6 in the morning, to 6 in the evening.

No charges were asked for.

Very good PR.

I personally know several people have stopped going to the Seychelles because of the stupid charges they came up with.