Has anyone seen the article in the latest issue of Petersons Hunting regarding recoil and muzzel blast? The author touts the 25 cal for this (Kudu Gemsbok etc) game in Africa as the hunter would not have the recoil and blast problems and relies on proper bullet placement. This is just what every PH wants to hear. Tex (no offense ment) sees this and thinks damn that 25-06 I use for Pronghorn is just the ticket for my first plains game hunt in RSA or Namibia.

[ 09-05-2003, 16:35: Message edited by: Die Ou Jagter ]

Roy Weatherby took LOTS of plainsgame with his 257...and 87 grain bullets! Althoguh I wouldn't recommend such a feat, I's stick with a good 100gr premium ( like an Aframe) and use judicious shot placement.... if you're deat set on using a 25. jorge

Well, I wouldn't advocate using the .25 on larger game, but it sure works when necessary. My wife (a one-rifle girl) dropped her oryx (a very large cow) in New Mexico with one shot from her .257 Roberts. It was about 250 yards away and just dropped straight down at the shot. I've seen several others shot with .30 calibers that didn't react that way.

Good bullets + Good Shot Placement = Dead Kudu or Dead Gemsbok.

I don't advocate a small caliber rifle and always handle hunts with a bit more concern when the hunters use less then 30 caliber rifles. I prefer 8mm or .338 and over much more then .308 and under. Just so you know where I'm at on this.

Now, I take a lot of kids hunting. This past season I had five boys under 16 years old. one used a 25/06, two used a .243, and one used a 30/06 with light loads and 165 grain bullets. The youngest boy (10yo)lost an impala ram with a bad shot not a poor bullet diameter.

There were Kudu, warthogs, gemsbok, and impala killed with the .243. I was nervuos as can be when each shot was taken, I promise you! However the 12yo boy was such a good shot and had such a love of hunting, shot placement, and anatomy by the time he was done hunting I felt I would take him again anytime with that little 243 of his.

I still don't like sub .308 diameter but watching some pretty big game hit with that tiny little .243 and Hornady factory ammo go down was impressive. When the shots were put exactly where I told him I wanted them and he was accurate enough to do it, the animals died quite easily.

There was at most a few little drops of blood during the follow up tracking. The gemsbok and Kudu went well over 100 yards after being hit. The spoor was hoof prints alone with the very few specks of blood as confirmation I was on the right track. Everything was located and the Safari with the little .243 was a success.

That Safari with a little boy and a .243 was like walking a narrow beam high off the ground. It was difficult and very stressful but when I got to the end it felt like a ton of bricks was lifted from my chest, and I was quite happy I was finished!

Any reputable bullet maker will tell you, the smaller the caliber, the more difficult it is to produce reliable big game hunting bullets. When one opts for a smallish caliber and then pushes the envelope in regard to animal weight, size and toughness, the odds for trouble increase. When we speak of "Good Shot Placement" we tend to assume shot presentations that may never materialize. Use a caliber that provides the bullet weight that will suffice for the intended quarry from the widest possible spectrum of distances and angles. IMO, especially for the visiting trophy hunter, Kudu & Gemsbok warrant .30 caliber and up.

the hunter would not have the recoil and blast problems

What recoil and blast problems? Compared to what, a 105 mm howitzer?

If you can't handle the "muzzle blast and recoil" of a .30 caliber rifle, stay the hell at home.

I hope this doesn't turn into one of those ".22 caliber for elephant topics".

Regards,

Terry

[ 09-05-2003, 18:46: Message edited by: T.Carr ]

Well, remember that alot of elk are taken each year with the .25-06 so it's certainly capable. I would be inclined to use max-weight(117 and 120 grain) bullets on large tough animals. I was surprized by one of the more experienced posters using the 100 grainers but that's not too uncommon for 100 grainers being used. Shot placement always counts most of all.

As far as recoil and muzzle blast of a .30 caliber go, the .300 savage is a very user friendly little moderate range caliber that can do the job.

Resident elk hunters, with an entire season to hunt, can justify using a .25-06. Those who frequent open areas can elect to wait for just the right shot, as can migration hunters, waiting in ambush. The visiting trophy hunter, who knows not if he'll be in and out of elk jungles for his hard-earned but lone week of hunting, is better off with a heavier caliber.

Well

I have used 25 cal on red stag and fallow deer, it works fine if you hit them right were you should, not in back side . If you can shoot the game will be yours. My favorites was nosler partition and Swift A frame.

An South African I meet at a hunting fair told me that 243 was a very popular round for 0ntelopes and leopard, Is it soo

/ JOHAN

This thread alwyas comes up, whether elk, deer or african game. Any very good shot can kill almost any game animal w/ the lowly .22lr. I am not willing to wait for perfect presentation to get that perfect broadside shot. Especially for an African hunt where you may only get a brief shot, head on into your Gemsbok or Kudu or whatever. I'm not willing to bet my hard earned money on that little bullet getting into the vitals. Yes, I could wait for that perfect shot, but then I may go home w/ nothing.
Alot of hunters do most of their big game hunting from a blind or stand & are shooting @ undisturbed animals. Much different than walking the woods/bushveld taking the animal as you see him. Give me a .280/160gr & up for a trip to Africa.

In my experience, you rarely see hunters in my neck of the woods using .25 caliber on anything bigger than deer. Most popular calibers for Elk are 7 mag, 30.06, .338 and so on. .25 caliber is to small for anything larger than deer, IMHO.

.

Gemsbok, Gemsbuck, Oryx is a "soft" target? First time I've ever heard anyone say that. Live and learn.

.

Shooting, knowledge of game, and shot placement is the answer...All of us true hunters who do not make mistakes because of practice and experience and learned from our younger years..We don't make excuses we make the shot...If we use a lighter rifle we have the sense and sensibility to take a little extra time and not to rush the shot..
For what Terry says to those wannabe hunters if you cannot take the game yu should not be here..Sportsman are always measured by the slob hunters...
Hack showed the exception to the rule..That young lad reminded me of my self...I read new my animals inside and out in Pensylvania.. I practiced and when the time came groundhog hunting
honed my skills and marksmanship for biggame...As a youngboy I watched on man who I modeled myself after...He hunted and always made the shot...
A rifle in the hands of a true hunter is a precise and efficient tool when called upon..no excuses... IMO

Mike

Hey Alf,
How about you give me a single reference, from anywhere in the world, that concurs with your use of the term "very small" in regard to the gemsbok? BTW, I've shot my share and "soft" don't fit, either.



[ 09-06-2003, 08:00: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

/

I have a large number of sources giving maximum weights of 240 KG and a bit more. That's well over 500 pounds, I believe. From my own hunting experience and from that of most hunters I've spoken to, the southern oryx is every bit as "hard" as kudu and then some. Again, I've never before heard or read that the Gemsbok was small or soft. To the contrary, I've seen it compared favorably with wildebeest, as far as toughness.
But, that aside and with all due respect for your experience, there is no chance I'd ever consider using .25 caliber for the hunting of trophy gemsbok, let alone recommended it to someone. We differ on this ... that's O.K.

This is like one of those "is a .270 enough for elk" conversations over on the big game forum. I think the presence of springbok in Gemsbok habitat increases the need for compromise as Alf states but why not compromise on the side of caution and just use a .300 Win or 30-06 with premium bullets for both rather than trying to use a good springbok calibre on something bigger (regardless of how much bigger)? I also agree with Terry Carr when he states that "if you can't handle the recoil of a decent 30 cal, you should probably be practicing more or stay at home".

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

I've gotta say that although I know that a lot of animals have been killed with small calibres, I've never personally come across a small bullet that kills better than a big bullet (assuming same point of impact)....... it's that simple. Why spend all that money on an African safari and risk losing animals by taking unnecessary risks with small calibres. I stand with JJ, Terry & Nickudu on this, a sensible rule to follow is try to use a .30 calibre as a minimum. If you need to shoot at long distance then go for a .300 WM or similar, if shots are closer then a 3006 does just fine. If hunters can't handle the recoil of a 3006 then there's something seriously wrong somewhere.

I often have younger kids come on hunts with Dad and even they seem to shoot my Blaser 3006 without any problems and I know 4 women who all hunt with 458s of various kinds and have no problems whatsoever..... hell most of them have shot my .500 Jeffrey without any complaints.

[ 09-06-2003, 21:39: Message edited by: shakari ]

Sure it is possible. But it is like playing poker for money versus fun with no money on the table. The money changes everything. You might take a risk or even reckless action that you wouldnt if you stood to loose a lot of money. Trophy fees change the equation. You are free to accept as much risk as you want. Personally Ill stick with the 30 cals.

/

Do you pay $500 - $600 U.S. or more to shoot a gemsbok for biltong? Do you pay $300+ U.S. in daily rates? How about airfare and trophy shipments? Do you tip? Let's compare apples to apples, please.

Does the % argument also infer that a buffalo is easy to kill?? In the case of gemsbok, does it account for live distribution of that net weight? Surely, the bulk of the gemsbok is up front, surrounding the vitals, whereas a kudu bull would have a more even distribution, carrying a higher % in the hams.?

[ 09-07-2003, 17:08: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

/

Alf,
I can thoroughly relate to the gravitation towards a flatter shooting, lighter kicking rifle, from the perspective of the local hunter. Such is a universal tendency... not to mention shooting economics and local cartridge availability, as drivers.

Valuable insights, fine photographs and a very good observation in regard to the leg position on the wildebeest. As usual, I come away from debate with you, with increased knowledge. Thank you.

Boy, that sausage looks good!

[ 09-07-2003, 18:21: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

/

Some very fine trophy animals there, Alf. Guess these beautiful photos make you miss it all the more, eh? Great to see your father still enjoying his time outdoors. Does he still run things at the ranch?

I've talked with my Namibian friend and his father about various " toughness" of the animals they hunt, kudu, gemsbok, eland and hartebeast. Between them is over 60 years of hunting and many hundreds of each shot. They consider none of them particularly tough, but a wounded gemsbok deserved plenty of caution following it up.

TSJ - They're resident hunters. It would be interesting to know if they are trophy hunters or just meat hunters and what calibers they prefer.

Nick,
The farms are alotted "cull permits" for various amounts and animals depending on what the nature concervancy deem for the farm. these are cattle farms I'm talking about.
My friend shoots and buys the meat for the prison system. When he has X number of kilos of meat needed, he meat hunts. When he has time and for his own use he tropht hunts. His father shot the number 9 Namibian Eland in May this year.I have a photo but no way to post it. They both have some exceptional trophies as they are top notch hunters.
He uses anything from a .223 to a .338 depending on what bullets ( not ammo) i've sent him to try out for me!

I've used a .25-06 and later a .257 Roberts here fot many many years. The darn things work like lightning.

The Gemsbok I shot this last July was 75 yards away and he gave me enough time to properly place a 120 grain .257 bullet if that was what I was using. However the 200 grain .300 H&H I was using was more than sufficient to do the job.

Using a .25-06 on the Kudu I took at 275 yards, instead of my .30 cal. magnum, would be possible but damn it I had a lot of cash invested in this trip and I wanted some comfort that I had enough gun. When I walked up to that huge Kudu and saw close up those unbelievable horns, I never once thought about my .25-06 9,000 miles away.

Personally I believe a .30-06 is a minimum for the traditional plains game hunting in Africa. I know several folks that have traded their .270 for .338s for elk hunting here in the states.

Should I be so lucky as to return to Africa, the plains game rifle I'll be toting is a M-70 FWT in .30-06 or if I have it done by then, a .338-06. Either would make a fine elk or moose rifle as well.

A .25-06 on Gemsbok or Kudu? If the flight was $150 and the tags was $75 and the outfitter charged $25 a day, sure why not. Unfortunately that's not the real world!! If you can afford Africa, you can afford a real gun. A .30-06 is not a high priced commodity here in the states and further I recommend a premium quality bullet.

May all your safaris be a memorable as mine!!

The only thing I will add to this topic is yes it can be done and I know a lot of people who has done so a freind of mine has probarbly shot over 15 kudu bulls with a 243 loaded with plain old 100 grain pmp bullets. But I must also add that most of tghe time he has gone for head or neck shots.

As a non resident hunter who pays dearly for the hunt and also don't have the time to get more oppotunities on a great trophy like kudu or gemsbuck I would definitely tell you to go for something in the .30 cal plus. Factors like angle and penetration just doesn't count in the fast fast light bullet's side.

I also know of a lot of farmers who doesn't allow local meat hunters to hunt with a .243 where they are after springbuck and gemsbuck. Bad shooting and lots of lost animals just told the farmer not too take chances anymore. Can't blame them as a hunter have to pay for a lost animal and don't gfeel too happy after a trip like that loosing him as a client for next season.

I must also be honest and I'm a firm believer in big heavy bullets. Although I have shot springbuck and impala with a 223 before and that was with FMJ's 99% of the rest of the game where shot with .30 calibers and plus.