Yup,
The good news is we will test it out of a Mid 2004 production FinnLite stainless bored out to .418".
The better news is Ass Clown has agreed to pull the trigger.
JCN

Actually, RIP's load will be the last one I test, in an open field, with a long string.

Thanks All, for the comments, inquiries and lectures, even you, Alf.

Mike Brady may have some of the new bullets left, and he might even make more if he has buyers lining up. Anyone interested ought to call him at:

307-436-2726

... during regular business hours, Rocky Mountain Standard Time.

If anyone wants to buy them from me, I will charge much more than Mike gives them away for, considering the quality of the product.

Back to Alf:
Alf, you have posted the A-Square data here that showed an average pressure of 49,800 PSI (not CUP) for the 400 grain Dead Tough bullet with 80 grains of RL-15, giving 2379 fps from a 26" barrel of 0.423" groove diameter and 16.54" twist.

CIP maximum average pressure for the .404 Jeffery is 52,975 Piezo PSI.

The Norma brass is great stuff for 60,000 PSI loads no doubt.

Modern rifles ought to easily be able to handle 60K PSI.

Varget is a fine powder for 400 grainers upto 2400 fps and MORE.

I expect I might recreate Ray's 27" Lothar Walther barreled .404 Jeffery and easily come up with some equal momentum loads, of 137 lbs-ft/sec as follows, using Varget and H4350 "Extreme" powders:

400 grain Woodleigh (soft/solid)at 2400 fps <50K PSI ???
380 grain North Fork (FP/SP/CP) at 2525 fps <50K PSI ???
340 grain North Fork (SP) at 2820 fps 60K PSI ???

Anyway, the 400gr@2400fps and 380gr@2525fps are easily done in my 24" McGowen stainless 10" twist barrel at probably right at 50K PSI using Varget, 80 to 83 grains.

JCN,
I feel very comfortable with .404 Jeffery pressures from North Fork data and A-Square data.

Any new data that you can come up with regarding pressure would be very interesting indeed. I don't think I can collaborate right now, but hey, can you write it off as business expense?

RIP,

Yes, it is all a write off. My first rifle project will be the 416 Rem Mag because it is much more common, and definitely has that lack of capacity thing going on. The 404 will be a labor of love, so it will have to wait until I can afford it. Put at least five of those wonder bullets back for when I call to tell you the 404 barrel is up and running.



Alf,

Interesting point about the brass. I'll make a few phone calls. An hour or two with a bandsaw and a ball end micrometer would also likely tell the story. I believe the 30-06 can handle 270 pressures. At this point that is just a belief of mine, and worth what you payed for it. I will find out the truth of the matter and report back whether the answer vindicates or embarrasses me.

Things are certainly not always as they appear at first glance in the world of guns and ammunition. The 45 (long) Colt was developed a while back. The guns were weak by modern standards, and the original "balloon head" case was weaker still. To this day the 45 Colt is specified to run at much lower pressures than the 44 Magnum. If you section some Federal 45 Colt and 44 magnum brass however, you will see that the former is much thicker than the latter. My guess is that the Federal engineers figured that people would try some warmish loads in some oldish guns and decided to engineer a safety margin into the brass itself. The happy result is that a Ruger in 45 Colt is quite a capable tool with judicious loading.



JCN

RIP,

The Dakota marketing folks have told me that they sell a lot of their Traveler take-down with barrels sets for .404 Dakota and .330 Dakota.

jim

Hi Jim,
They say that a customer necked up the .375 Dakota to .423 caliber (just over 2.5" shortened .404 Jeffery) a few years ago.

Dakota just started advertizing the .404 Dakota in the last couple of years, eh? The new CEO (Kokesh?)of Dakota has one of the Traveler's in .404 and .330 switch-barrel.

The second issue of the new Dakota Magazine is supposed to feature the .404 Dakota.

400 grainer at 2450 fps and 350 grainer at 2550 fps, IIRC.

I have the dies and brass for the .404 Dakota and the .416 Dakota. Should be interesting.

Still no stainless 76 African action, but it is supposed to be in the works, for an African Sheep Rifle.

I'd jump on that band wagon in a heartbeat except that I already have several boxes of Woodleigh 350 grain bullets. I suspect the Northforks will be an awesome choice for eland and such.

Should we reply directly to Mike or go through whoever put the deal together? Thanks.

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ALF, RIP, Daddy Ray, Andy, et al,

I mailed off the money yesterday for a full suite of pressure testing equipment. My gunsmith is building the universal receiver in the next few weeks. If you guys want to kick in on a 404 Jeffery barrel I will be happy to test each of these mystical/magical loads per SAMI/CIP protocols and give you the pressure curves and peak pressure at 21C/70F and 43C/109F.

I will have the barrel maker leave an extra long full diameter section so that somebody can still use the barrel to build up a rifle after the testing is done. If someone has a PT&G (Dave Kiff) reamer that I could rent or borrow, well then I would be shitting in tall cotton. Send me a dozen or so of your favorite wonder bullet and a few of your brass powder vessel of choice and I will let you know what's what.

JCN

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This will get a bit long winded, so pour a cup of coffee..

There are three major methods of measuring pressure in this setting, two of which are commonly used. The copper crusher method is slow, and relies on tarage tables compiled nearly a century ago. It is not used much anymore. For the last twenty years ammunition, powder and bullet companies have gone over to using a pressure barrel that has a hole drilled through the side into the chamber. Per SAAMI specs the hole is at the midpoint of the cartridge case, per CIP the hole ends up at the mouth of the case. (My thanks to Mike Brady for alerting me to the different locations). Why two different locations? Well, no one knows exactly what goes on inside the cartridge case after the firing pinn hits the primer. There are different theories that have lead to different conclusions as to the optimal point for measurement. In any case a piezo-electric transducer is placed in the hole. What the heck is a piezo electric transducer? It is a piece of quartz. When the pressure wave deforms the quartz slightly an electical spark is produced. The greater the pressure/deformation the bigger the electrical impulse.
**Pop quiz** How were piezo-electric transducers used in WWII? They were used to make the "ping" that destroyers used to hunt submarines with (SONAR).
Anyway, the piezo-electric method does a decent job of providing peak pressure readings.

All the world is a spring. Everything in the world behaves like a coil spring on your screen door, or a rubber band if you will. Usually the stretching and going back to original size occurs on too small a scale for humans to see or feel, but it still happens. When a cartridge is fired in a rifle, the pressure against the chamber walls causes the barrel metal to stretch out momentarily before it springs back to its original size. By knowing the modulus of elasticity of the barrel steel and the inside and outside diameters of the barrel at the point of interest we can infer the pressure curve that develops when a cartridge is fired. A small grid is glued to the outside of the barrel. Through the wonders of micro-electronics the amount of stretch that occurs to the grid is correlated to the pressures occuring inside the barrel at the point of interest.

There is a mistaken belief extant that it is necessary and desirable to calibrate a pressure measuring system with factory ammunition. Factory ammunition is a neurotic pile of variables, disinformation and bad history. It is loaded on high speed equipment, the powder weights and volumes vary from one cartridge to the next (pull some bullets and weigh the contents). There is variation in total brisance from one primer to the next. Powder characteristics change with time and temperature. A handled cartridge starts to lose some of the deterrent coating on the individual powder granules. The neck tension varies with crimp die wear and with variations of neck wall thickness and bullet diameter. The factory doesn't produce ammunition to an absolute standard. It strives to produce ammunition that falls within an acceptable range. They aren't building a rocket ship to send to the moon. They are just trying to coax a little piece of lead and/or copper to leave a barrel and travel a few hundred meters down range. We have all had the experienc of chronographing factory ammunition and finding out that it is two hundred fps slower than advertised. Why? They'll say variable this and variable that, blah, blah, blah. Why? Liability insurance. Very few people buy chronographs. Fewer still chronograph factory ammunition. (chronograph = hand loader). So, the factories cut chambers over size (in the US), make the ammunition undersize, and usually underload from their stated specs. Except in the case of Remington 416 Rem Mag ammunition. Can you say "stuck bolt"? As my grandmother used to say "what a total goat fuck".

Sooooooo, we calibrate based on properties much more stable and consistent than advertised factory ammunition. Known characteristics of steel, inside and outside diameters of the pressure chamber, measured temperature, properties of quartz crystals, etc.

With careful technique, the strain gauge method approaches +/- 400 psi accuracy.

These days reloading manuals often display three different load tables for the 45/70 cartridge depending on the strength of the action that you will be firing it out of.

Probably not a bad idea to differentiate between a 404 Jeffery produced in 1923 by elves in Birmingham versus a Franken 404 cobbled together in 2005.

Sorry about the long winded answer.

JCN

Thanks RIP, I have asked Mike several times to come out w/ a "palinsgame" bullet for our beloved .404s. I'll drop him a line now & order some.

Lawndart, what system are you buying? I understand that the Oehler m43 is the one to get. It can give your info in psi. I think OK shooter has one and has used it extensively. How much psi is enough or too much? That is a matter for conjecture. I think the 30-06 SAAMI psi tops out at 60,000 psi. The win 270 tops out at 65,000. Why? Both based on the same case. I assume that most modern bolt actions could stand a figure near 65K if the standard deviation is not too great. I am anxious to see what info you get. Thanks for being pro active in helping your other AR 404 shooters.

I am likely getting two different systems. I am not interested in ballistic coefficients so I don't need the Oehler system. For initial workups I will use the pressure trace system from RSI. A possible future client would want the work done with a piezo-electric system. If that contract happens I would get a system from HS precision.
The big secret to getting valid results is meticulous lab technique. It was either this or start growing orchids in a green house .

Standardized PSI levels are often based on the age of the possible firearms that the cartridge might be fired in. The 30-06 was used in turn of the last century 03 Springfields and Winchester Model 95 lever action rifles. By the time the .270 came along steels had improved and the new round was chambered in a new rifle, the Winchester model 54, that could handle higher pressures. In a modern rifle there is no safety concern about running the 30-06 and 270 Win at the same pressures. What pressure you load a cartridge at is influenced by many factors. Unfortunately the overriding factor is often "the need for speed". I try to look at safety first, optimum operating speed for the construction of the bullet, and optimum speed/pressure for acceptable accuracy. For a self loading rifle the gas pressure as the bullet passes the gas port needs to fall within a fairly narrow range for good functioning of the rifle.
With the 404 the pressure limit would be influenced by three main factors. If the ammunition is being manufactured for commercial sale it needs to be safe to shoot in vintage rifles. If I sold Alf a box of 404 Jeffery ammunition that bulged the barrel or set back the bolt on his $9,000.00USD, irreplaceable rifle, well, he would throw a hissy fit that would result in a broken nose and two black eyes for me - and rightfully so. The next consideration is temperature. The ammunition must not be loaded so hot that there is the slightest bit of difficulty with extraction at 120F in the game fields of Africa. The 404 made its bones throwing a 400 grain bullet at a fairly pedestrian 2050-2200 fps. Amazingly enough, the ill tempered mega fauna fell over deader than Kelly's nuts. The final consideration for commercially loaded 404 Jeffery ammunition is recoil. The Jeffery rifle can be built on a smaller action than the Rigby. The rifle will be lighter. If the recoil is horrendous, people won't practice nearly as often, and you won't sell nearly as much ammunition.

When reloading for a modern rifle the limiting factor is how much (of an appropriate) powder you can stuff in the cartridge. Have fun, and God bless you there.

Alf and RIP are really talking apples and oranges. They both shoot rifles chambered for the 404 Jeffery cartridge, but the similarity ends there. They are asking different questions.

To my view, the brilliance of the 404 Jeffery is that it gets the job done right smart with a standard size action and moderate recoil at an acceptably low pressure. It also feeds as smoothly as Michael Moore throwing peanut M&Ms down his pie hole.

JCN

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