quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Ed,

The outfitters who told me they never get any bookings at SCI never go to DSC?!

As you mentioned, they go there because they are expected to I suppose.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Zimbabwe, thanks for your comment and I totally agree, not ALL posters here have problems with SCI. Personally I don't get Saeed's position, for starters take the time to go thru the SCI record book and see the record, don't just takes someone's word, that's all.

As to the record book I love the comments from some posters "MY X animal would be a gold medal head, but I don't enter trophies in any book." If you weren't concerned about size how would you the trophy's ranking.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Ed,

Years ago I remember we just left camp in Zimbabwe.

About 15 minutes later, we saw a reedbuck running in long grass.

I jumped out of the truck, and shot as he running.

As soon as we got to him, my PH said "that is the biggest reedbuck I have ever seen.

He measured at camp, and told me that would certainly make number 2 in the SCI record book, if not number one.

And he was an SCI measurer.

I never bothered entering it, and I knew he was high scoring.

quote:

Thats all the SCI book is really, hunters recounting their hunting experiences - in a concise, economical fashion.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Thats all the SCI book is really, hunters recounting their hunting experiences - in a concise, economical fashion.

Matt:

Not every entry in the SCI Record book brands the holder as an egoistic pompous individual. Regrettably however, most of the SCI big wigs and others not directly connected to the Inner Circle (though rubbing shoulders and vying to be elected or recognized) are very particular at which level of the scale their names appear .... and some wouldn't be seen dead if their names did not appear within the top 10!

Out of curiosity, why and possibly who, conjured up the Awards system; you know, the Gold, Platinum, Diamond, mine is bigger than yours, etc.

Isn't it simply sufficient to appear in the rankings, holding n.3 or 5 or 1 for a few years (or more) and possibly getting knocked off that perch by a nonentity like Fred Bloggs who didn't go on a full blown safari with all the frills and fanfare - just that 'economy class' plains-game hunt that he'd been scraping and saving for over the years?

Nah, someone must have come up with the awards BS knowing not many people would ever make it up there on the dais being received with the pomp that befits the occasion.

I have personally come across several of these individuals, one of whom (hard to forget) came to this neck of the woods to specifically hunt 2 species (one up north and the other in the south)which were missing from his list to qualify him for the coveted Diamond Award - his instructions were "as long as it has balls and something that resembles horns it qualifies" adding that he had to submit his photos in time to be included in the Awards presentation ceremony at the beginning of the following year.

He was politely informed that nothing under "representative" would be shot and if push came to shove he would have to try again the following year.

Needless to say he did receive his Diamond Award and his Gerenuk not only had balls but also a set of horns to match their size! He chartered out the following day for the South where he scored on his Red Duiker as well.

I have quite a few unsavoury stories about some of our esteemed SCI hierarchy (past)

quote:

And don't forget the endless hurdles put in the way of "Joe Blogs" if he wanted to enter a trophy that might displace some bigwigs position too.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Thats all the SCI book is really, hunters recounting their hunting experiences - in a concise, economical fashion.

Matt:

Not every entry in the SCI Record book brands the holder as an egoistic pompous individual. Regrettably however, most of the SCI big wigs and others not directly connected to the Inner Circle (though rubbing shoulders and vying to be elected or recognized) are very particular at which level of the scale their names appear .... and some wouldn't be seen dead if their names did not appear within the top 10!

Out of curiosity, why and possibly who, conjured up the Awards system; you know, the Gold, Platinum, Diamond, mine is bigger than yours, etc.

Isn't it simply sufficient to appear in the rankings, holding n.3 or 5 or 1 for a few years (or more) and possibly getting knocked off that perch by a nonentity like Fred Bloggs who didn't go on a full blown safari with all the frills and fanfare - just that 'economy class' plains-game hunt that he'd been scraping and saving for over the years?

Nah, someone must have come up with the awards BS knowing not many people would ever make it up there on the dais being received with the pomp that befits the occasion.

I have personally come across several of these individuals, one of whom (hard to forget) came to this neck of the woods to specifically hunt 2 species (one up north and the other in the south)which were missing from his list to qualify him for the coveted Diamond Award - his instructions were "as long as it has balls and something that resembles horns it qualifies" adding that he had to submit his photos in time to be included in the Awards presentation ceremony at the beginning of the following year.

He was politely informed that nothing under "representative" would be shot and if push came to shove he would have to try again the following year.

Needless to say he did receive his Diamond Award and his Gerenuk not only had balls but also a set of horns to match their size! He chartered out the following day for the South where he scored on his Red Duiker as well.

I have quite a few unsavoury stories about some of our esteemed SCI hierarchy (past)

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
Looking forward to my 12 year in attendance of the DSC convention.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Bill,

I would love to, but I am afraid not.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
You know it is not SCI's fault for the book heads to be taken in unlikely sportsmen manner. It is the fault of the "hunter". On the entry form is the following:

I certify that to the best of my knowledge, I took this animal without violating the wildlife laws or ethical hunting practices of the country or province in which hunted. I also certify that to the best of my knowledge the laws of my country have not been violated by my taking or importing this animal. It also ask if free range or not.

It is on the shoulders of the hunter if he or she is truthful or not. Of course it is easier to blame and organization than an individual as we all want to tolerant of our fellow man, eh.


Maybe the statement should say or the ethical standards of anyone else or any other organization of which I am privy to or not.

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:
How is the SCI record book a "valuable conservation tool"?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

SCI knows precisely what is going.

They just choose to turn a blind eye to it.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

SCI knows precisely what is going.

They just choose to turn a blind eye to it.

That is incorrect Saeed. I dont know what your involvement is with SCI record keeping but I frequently get emails from those guys, requesting information to help keep the record book 'clean'... information regarding game law changes, different hunting areas and such.

What is your involvement?

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:


Matt:

I am confusing nothing. One thing led to another and I have pointed that out. First came the book with lowered standards (compared to RW) then when someone saw that every Tom, Dick and Harry was sitting above or below HRH, it possibly created some embarrassment to some and something had to be done about it to "close the ranks" - hence the introduction of the Awards.

That the SCI Records book is considered as a tool for conservation is a matter of opinion - if so, who uses it and to which specific purpose?
If it were mandatory for any animal taken to be registered in the Record Book, yes, I could agree with what you say - but it is not mandatory and therefore the information is not entirely true.

The record book IMO is merely a collection of reference data for the hunter and SCI came up with its own.
The levels or standards are set in stone: if the trophy does not measure and conform to minimum requirements it just does not make the book - this separates the hunter from the 'gong collector' and there are so many people (fact) out there who don't give a flying fiddle about having their names in the book yet have 1st Class trophies on their walls which give them more pleasure to look and rekindle memories, than being in the book.

How many have heard the phrase: "If it aint 45 or over I'm not interested"?

Bollocks to that - better a worn out old dagga boy anywhere between 38-40 that doesn't score 100 than some 52" pen raised buffalo bought and paid for at the supermarket! - That's what your record book is worth!

The awards are there and stand for what they represent; define them however you like but we know it has something seriously aligned with egoistic attitudes.

Yes, the unsavoury characters and their behaviours are present in every club but it is also true to say that they should get their asses kicked (out) especially when they represent the "stalwarts" of the Club.

To each his own I guess.

"How many have heard the phrase: "If it aint 45 or over I'm not interested"?
Bollocks to that - better a worn out old dagga boy anywhere between 38-40 that doesn't score 100 than some 52" pen raised buffalo bought and paid for at the supermarket! - That's what your record book is worth!"

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Non at all Matt.

But, I KNOW for a fact that many trophies entered in the book have been taken in VERY shady ways.

In some instance the hunt was totally illegal.

I know, they ask the individual entering the trophy to state that nothing illegal has been done to get that trophy.

Do you think the shady characters who have done the deed will admit to it?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I am only getting second hand information.

But what I hear is that at SCI convention, anything the exhibitors need, in any services, they have to pay for very high prices.

At DSC it seems they have volunteers who do a lot of work helping exhibitors without having to charge an arm and a leg.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

From their lethargic actions against shady operators, to the unionized staff they use on their shows, that bleed every exhibitor dry.

On the other hand, we hear about how the volunteers at DSC help everyone exhibiting there.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:
How is the SCI record book a "valuable conservation tool"?

The way I see it - the SCI record book is an historical record by hunters, for hunters (not just as hunters but as active conservationists) and the trophy animals that they pursue. That record can be used in a great many different ways to assist with conservation.

Let me give you an example: Here in Australasia some of us are trying to have a certain deer sub-species (Molluccan rusa) recognised by IUCN as its own individual species, so that we can establish serious (govt sponsored) conservation programs for them. It would be an endangered species while its parent species is not. We have lots of different evidence that it should be its own species - and one of those items is the SCI record book that shows that hunters have been regarding it as a separate species since 1975 (or whenever it was).

See what I mean!! In this case the hunters name in the record book are interesting but largely irrelevant - except perhaps that the hunters name gives some credibility to each entry.

I can give you other examples if you like? I use the Record book regularly - although I have never entered one of my own trophies - I definitely will when I get around to it!!

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

Sorry fujo - I cant compete with your Platinum Level of pettiness and arrogance.... you win.

Awww.... can't take the heat? I noted you shied away from coming to the rescue of some of your benefactors - I'm surprised you haven't called me a liar as well


BTW - Rusa deer have been here for over 120 years... Uh huh ... and for 80 years were running about with the kangaroos until the last 40 or so when SCI decided to "identify" them as a distinct species?

quote:

Not only that, RW includes all animals whether they were hunted, trapped, died of natural causes and so on, and is, in fact, a scientific record; whereas the SCI book warps the data toward specific characteristics most sought after by the hunter and eliminating everything else, thereby reducing its scientific value to nil.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I have the plaques from SCI beside many of the mounts in my office. People ask about the African animals i e size etc. I also have some whitetails with the plaques. Local people understand size re whitetails and can use the medal rankings as a comparison. It is then in my opinion and educational tool.