In the hopes of generating some good discussions based on the wealth of experience that resides here, do any of you think it is unwise to take chest shots? What got me going here is all the hunting shows on TV my wife says I'm addicted to.

Virtually in every show and regardless of the animal being taken, everybody says "wait for him to turn then shoot them behind the shoulder." ( I prefer the shoulder myself) The results are always the same ( unless the spine is hit of course), the deer ( or whatever the quarry) runs off camera, to be recovered some distance/time later. I've always had great success with frontal chest shots. Not usually as good as the shoulder, but killing shots nevertheless. So why the aversion to chest shots? Poor shooting, smaller target? Do any of you avoid the chest? jorge

I have no problems with frontal shots except on Buffalo with calibers under 416...The 375 and 9.3x62 can slide off the chest and go under the shoulder and down the outside of the rib cage and create a seriously mad buffalo in the thick stuff, be it grass or jesse...The use of solids reportedly can rectify this problem in those lighter calibers...

I did not believe this for several years after reading it in Dr. Kevin Robertsons book, "Nyati", until I observed it happen not once but twice on the same hunt...

So, like Doctari, I think the frontal shot is fine on buffalo with 416 cal and larger, and with a 375 using solids, he made a believer out of me...

On elephant frontal shots should be brain shots IMO...

Jorge,

I have shot the following in the front of the chest:

Archery: giraffe, whitetail deer

Rifle: common reedbuck

All were DOA. Under the right circumstances this can be a very effective shot.

I have found it to be very effective on North Aamerican big game, but dicey on cape buffalo. I collected one buffalo with the frontal chest shot and lost one. All with a 416 Rigby. Another hunter two weeks before me shot a buffalo in the chest with a 458 Lott. He got away.....for a week and a half. Then he charged the land cruiser from the thick brush. A gun fight ensued, and after 14 shots (.416 & 500 Nitro Express), the buffalo threw in the towel and gave it up.

On deer size game I think about the mess I might have if the bullet penetrates into the guts and it will with larger deer calibers. However, if that's all I got or a rear quatering shot then so be it.

Huh?

You can drop buffalo just as fast with frontal shots as broadside shots, and anything else for that matter. Just have to hit the heart, as less chance of hitting the lungs.

[ 11-24-2003, 02:37: Message edited by: Will ]

Perhaps I'm lucky but I have had a very high percentage of instant kills by hitting the animal in the front of the chest. Sometimes it has almost seemed to be magic. As long as you can be assured of driving your bullet lengthwise through most of the animal you should have no hesitation taking this shot. This is just my opinion but if you wait for the broadside presentation the animal may just slip away leaving you no shot.

Off the top of my head I have shot the following whitetail deer in the front of the chest.
243WCF 95gr Nosler Partition, range @ 150 yards. Deer ran @ 30 to40 yards. Bullet recovered in Ham, perfect mushroom.
2 deer shot with 308WCF, Nosler 150gr. solid Base both at @ 100 yards, both went straight down. One a good buck had to be finished with a pocket knife, shot was a little high in the chest and hit the spine.
One deer shot with a 375 H&H 220gr. Hornady FP at 175 yards. Deer ran @ 15 yards jumped a 5'fence and ran another 15 yards. Bullet recovered in ham. Perfect mushroom.
Deer shot with 9,3x74R Rws factory 293TUG, 35 yards. Deer went right down, bullet gave complete penetration, even breaking the big bone in the ham on the way out!
Deer shot with 450/400 3 1/4" Nitro Express, 300gr. Hawk.025jkt. Deer jumped to the right at shot covered maybe 6 yards "scrabbling" about. Bullet recovered in the flank about the level of the tenderloins. Expanded about the size of a quarter.
In most of the above cases I took the frontal shot because I wanted to, as I felt it was a good way to try and recover a bullet. I would have no problem taking this shot on any game.
Maybe I should add "with the proper bullet", but I do not hunt with the "wrong" bullet.

I have taken two buff head on with a 470, both went down instantly. Another buff was taken head on just below the chin with a 350 gr. 416 with the same results.

On the other hand, I have had Wildebeast go over 100 yds with a 350 gr. 416 through the heart.

I will always take the shot, but I know when I do that things can and do go sour on rare ocassions if the bullet slides off to one side, but a follow up shot will usually sort things out...and I never wait for the second shot on buff, in fact I keep shooting until they are down for the count, never resting on my laurels...

I have never heard it mentioned on this board nor have I read it anywhere but my favorite shot on Buffalo is where the neck and body come together and center..It is always an instant knock them down and they don't get up, you may or may not have to shoot again, but I do anyway...Even if you miss the massive spine you will hit the long short ribs in that area and this will paralize the buffalo...I have shot nemourous buffalo in this manner and it never has failed me with a soft or a solid...Sometimes I shoot them in the shoulder, why I have no clue, I just do...but the shoulder is not my favorite shot on Buffalo..

jorge,

I have shot many animals, including buffalo, both into the chest and the backside.

Never had any problems.

Just make sure you have a bullet that will penetrate deep enough.

Years ago, I was told it is unwise to shoot a buffalo in the head. I tried it once, and since then I took a head shot whenever it was offered.

Again, never had any problems.

All with a 375/404.

And I am waiting for the scientists to re-surrect Tyrannosaurus Rex, and when they do, I will still use my 375/404 on a one of them when it charges me

The replies were exactly what I suspected. Frontal shots are a viable and excellent option to take any kind of game. Those of you who watch the hunting shows on US television, take notice of how this shot is almost never taken. I watched a hunter pass up a HUGe deer, because all he had was a frontal shot. "he never turned and offered me a ahot" so he said! go figure! jorge

I have seen some pretty remarkable "recoveries" by elephant and Buffalo from frontal shots.

On the second Buffalo cull I participated in, I had to follow up a buff that had taken a central hit by a .416 rigby solid. Eventually (some days later!!!!) I found it and finished it off. Dissection showed that the bullet had passed between the lungs, above the heart, between liver and stomach, punctured no intestines and come to rest just short of the Anus!. In that very sad four year chapter in our history of buffalo erradication, there were far too many stories of frontal bullet failure to just take my first experience as a freak.

The farmers and other civiliand taking part in those culls enjoyed the initial shooting but left it up to the Government employee's for the dangerous follow-ups. We got to see many animals that should have died that didn't.

Same story on elephant.

My personal opinion is that any frontal shot must be with a good soft and aimed to either hit the heart (aim low) or aimed to break the spine (aim just under the chin, depending on head angle). Am happy to use it- and have done so on plently of buffalo. But - shot placement is more critical. Usually it works just fine but not always, and I intensly dislike that three day follow up and then having to declare some dangerous animal as wounded and lost.

Jorge,

I've also taken several animals including buffalo and eland (with my .416 Rigby) and never had any problems - it's a very effective shot and probably sometimes the only one which you will get.

Some might argue that the target is smaller, that's right, but also on broadside shots bullet placement is everything.

Nevertheless, I think you have to distinguish the shot placement between trophy hunting and (mainly) meat hunting - when you hunt for I trophy I don't care much if the guts are spilled (from a frontal shot) or the ham are shot through, but when I'm hunting deer for meat I'm nearly always waiting until I get the chance for a broadside shot (and then I tend to place the bullet to place just behind the shoulder - less meat damage compared to direct shoulder hits, but the deer can still go a few meters, but that's not problem with a dog).

Best regards,

Erik

No problem with frontal or rear shots IF the shooter knows what he`s doing. I`ve shot a couple of animals with both shots. It`s a good shot if you hit exactly the right place, but you really do have less of a margin.
For me it`s short range shooting or from a very steady position.
In august I tried for a frontal shot on a roedeer buck and missed him. Well actually, I found some hair on the spot. Looked for him for a couple of days, but I think he recovered. But I had a some bad days... Regretted the "stupid" shot!

Against:-

Can be a much much smaller vital area than apparent due to the mass of muscle and bone associated with the shoulders

Very little blood indeed so tracking very difficult

Animal is looking at you so more liable to suddenly move

Rifle must be matched to quarry if unecessary damage is to be avoided.

If you're selling the animal and have a well matched cartridge that is not going to blow all the way through and wreck a rear leg, you need to aim low to avoid the spine and consequent meat damage.

For:-

It's a shot that can recover your game.

If your cartridge is well matched and you have a good rest it is an excellent shot for use in a heard to avoid through and through penetration and wounding animals standing behind.

Unfortunately, the target is smaller and the animal is usually aware of your presence, making it a more hurried shot.
Another aspect, is that there is little margin for error as a bullet that penerates through one lung and maybe clips the liver will allow the animal (depending on species) to cover a long distance before dying...
I would take the shot, preferably under the chin to drop the animal, and only from a reasonable distance.

Gentlemen
I've shot nothing larger then a Virginia whitetail.
I remember reading in one of the gun rags that "breaking down" the large animal was the preferred technique. Using a large enough caliber to smash the leg or shoulder, to destablize the animals ability to run or even stand.
The article went to great depth on how to visualise the off side shoulder, etc.
Is this reality or some more 'Bull Hooie'?
Jim
PS
Is there a difference in the shape of a solid as to the effectiveness. Say spitzer vs. a blunt round nosed?

[ 11-24-2003, 17:40: Message edited by: arkypete ]

I think the reason why m ost ph's prefer the side-on shot is because it makes it easier to visualise where the vitals are. On a frontal shot, you need to know your anatomy better

I personally don't have a problem with frontal shots on buff within 50 yards with my .375 and a solid. However, if i think the animal will turn to offer me the broadside shot, I will wait for it. Always!

happy hunting!

RAy....the shot you described is the shot my PH told me to take on the buff I shot in Zim a few years ago. He told me it was the highest percentage frontal shot there was on buff. I used a Nosler Partition for the only shot needed as he dropped at the shot....recovered weight was 200+gr. The "death bellow" followed the shot by less than 10 seconds and as you suggested, he requested a solid thru the top of the shoulders before we moved in for photos.

I think the key here is bullet construction- many of those "tv hunters" are using ballistic tips or other lightly constructed bullets. Use a good bullet that will penetrate in a straight line and take the best shot that you're offered.

DB,
That is a good shot to take from the front or the side and the one I use most of the time...PH Richard Lemmer says shooting buffalo with me is really boring, they just drop, no excitment...

I notice some here are shooting Buffalo from the front and some are shooting deer...That is two seperate ballgames and one does not apply to the other...

Of course anytime you shoot any animal you must take note of the angle of your bullet, such as where it goes in and where you want it to come out...it should take out the heart and lungs in the process if angled correctly..just poking your gun out and taking a shoulder shot without thought of the angle of the traveling bullet might get you a shoulder and a bunch of ribs and a long drawn out tracking job....Not "Bull Hooie" its fact.

I've shot several animals with a frontal shot and they just drop as Ray described. The most recent was a big bull elk last year. How often do you see an elk (or buff) drop at the shot and not get up? Obviously it's effective as several have described here.

I believe the reason the shows say to wait are three fold...

It is a smaller (and harder) target, or at least it looks like it when you have it in your sights. My observation is that there is more margin for error on a broadside shot. They don't want to tape a miss.

Second... it makes better video. When you have a frontal shot you generally don't see much animal.

And Third.... Just about EVERYONE you read says a broadside heart/lung shot is the only reliable shot.... and people have bought it.

I had a 150grain slug from a 7mm mag break up on the brisket of a deer. Deer died anyway but I was surprised at the lack of penetration. Same bullet always exited on broadside shots.

Just had a hunter pass a frontal shot at about 150yds on a 150 plus whitetail. He went home without one. He would be hanging in the barn if I was the shooter.

Chuck

I've taken the frontal shot on a variety of soft game including a nice waterbuck and several kudu cows used for bait......aim point is much lower than on buff and the top of the heart is the point I want to hit. I was using a 350 RemMag with 225gr Noslers and the range was under 100 yards in each case......on impact the animal would drop to its knees and then jump up and run 25 yards and pile up dead......blood trail was almost a solid stream, mostly from the mouth as the shot seems to explode the heart. No meat damage either.

I have taken only (4) animals w/ the front chest shot. Three dropped @ the shot, Impala, Gemsbok & a mule deer. The Kudu spun & ran less than 40yds. I think it's very effective if you use enough bullet for penetration & can place the shot. I think most of the TV shows want to show the broadside shot as the "perfect" shot, but I think the frontal shot transfers more energy to the animal (more muscle tissue struck along w/ the heart/lungs). Just a theory.

Since this is The AFRICAN BIG GAME HUNTING forum, we can assume, most who will be shooting game in Africa, will be useing a premium bullet, of the proper size for the game he is shooting!

With that said, The only frontal body shot that doesn't make sense is on an Elephant! I find a frontal shot placed just above the point of the "V" made by the neck joining the chest of a Cape Buffalo, is a fine shot, again assumeing the shooter is shooting a proper buffalo rifle, and load! This is not, however a charge stopping shot, but a killing shot,to the heart, taken at a reasonable range, say between 30, and 40 yds, to be followed by a shoulder shot as the bull turns to flee, or a brain shot if a charge follows. I find this shot to be a good choice, if it is off a little to the right, or left, it will take out one lung,and maybe a ceroted artery, and if a little high, it will take out the dip in the spine! If closer than 30 yds, this isn't the shot, but the tip of the nose, or just under the boss is the shot to take on a Buffalo. The standing, chest shot from the front, is always a good one on plains game!

Interesting thread. I had just this discussion with the PH I was hunting with in Zim this year. I had a .375 and a double .470 with me. My plan was to take an elephant with the .470 and use whatever I had in hand for buff. He was adament that I not take a frontal chest shot with the .375. When we later did the butchering of the buff I eventually took, he was careful to show me the rib cage. The ribs overlap in the front and angle very sharply in a "V" shape. His theroy was that a higher velocity bullet could be deflected and follow the outside of the ribs. Who knows...

I do know from experence, however, that buffalo taken through the heart die faster than ones taken through the lungs. The larger the bullet the better and softs work much faster than solids. I have shot them with .375s, .416s and .470s. From my limited experience, the .416 soft through the heart seemed to work the best. The bottom line though is that each is an individual and that even shot through the heart some take several minutes to fall over.

I've taken chest/front on shots on a few occasions. I shot a tsessebe in chest high grass head on in the chest catching the spine dropping him where he stood. I also shot a zebra head on in the chest but the entire chest was open and I hit him in the heart. He ran about 50 - 60 yards although the last several yards were more like stumbling and tumbling.

My PH and I were on a rather tall "ant" hill glassing blue wildebeests and zebras. We had crawled over 300 yards over rock hard soil to get there (my knees still hurt). Regardless, the wildebeest was the primary target but we were going to take whichever gave us the best opportunity. They were grazing across a small valley from us on the hillside near or at the top. The distance was about 250 yards. Since it was my me and my PH's first time together he didn't want me to take the shot. So we waited a considerable time (I think I fell asleep at one point!). Finally the wildebeests started grazing down the hillside straight at us. My PH and I were in the "zone" with the back and forth typical of making sure I was on the right animal. He told me to take him when he stopped as he was about 75 yards by now. So I waited and he finally turned broadside as coming down the hill there was really no good angle into the chest. Later after we got the animal my PH turned to me and said, "why didn't you spine him when he was grazing down the hill?". My reply was that I hadn't considered it.

Just goes to show you how much we are victims of our prejudices or "experience".

the only complaint I have about frontable or arse shoots is the "grapell jelly" that the guts turn into, when i am shooting anything over 2500fps...

As i am usually using a good bullet, and "heavy" for caliber (in the us, I believe that's .250sd or higher) and a 358 or bigger for stalking, I have found that using "too much" gun is usually an advantage.

I haven't taken anything in africa... haven't been yet...

but in the us...line it up (say you are using a scope) cross hairs between the front legs, or aimed to, and for a frontal shot, center of the way up.... BOOM! grapelle out the anus or nose... clean kill

jeffe

posted 11-25-2003 05:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by arkypete:
Is there a difference in the shape of a solid as to the effectiveness. Say spitzer vs. a blunt round nosed?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim,
Apperently spitzer solids do not stabilize inside fluid and penetrate erratically.
Roundnoses set up some kind of bubble in front of them once inside the flesh, allowing them to gyroscopically stabilise as if in air. I think this is what I gleaned from Norbert's posts but I may have added my own black magic and wives tales to it so don't quote me..

A little Black Magic. It's actually the flat meplate or as Norbert uses a cupped disc that sets up the bubble and gives the deep penetration within an aqueous material. The pointed spitzer solid should never be used and the round nose has more of a chance for deflection. I tried to collect data for my website with penetration tests in wet newspaper and the round nose solids were leaving the side of the test box within the first two feet of penetration. Now with the flat nose solids from Bridger I'm interested in trying the process again.
Take care,
Dave

Someone help me out here please! Wouldn't a frontal shot that takes out heart and lungs tend to be rather low in the chest? yet Ray talks about shooting where the neck meets the chest which to me, would make it rather higher. Are there in fact two different shots that can be taken here, or am I just confused? Jorge? Ray?
peter.

Peter: I think Ray was talking about the juncture of the neck and shoulder on a side shot? I KNOW that frontal chest shots work. The reason for my post was that shot is not consideredviable in all the TV hunting shows that abound today. In virtually eery situation, the shooter says " I have to wait for him to turn sideways" before he can shoot. I find that ridiculous. jorge

On a Cape buffalo, the bottom of the "V" made by the neck joining the center of the chest, is a dirrect path to the heart! If a little off to the right or left, it will collect arteries of the neck from the heart, and one lung. If alittle high, it will collect the spine, as the spine has a deep dip where it goes through between the shoulders. However these shots should only be taken if the bull is standing still,at distance, or if no other shot is available in a charge, comeing through jesse, anf the nose isn't open to a shot.

Thanks for the explanation MacD37. I am at home now so I will pull out my book and see it in pictures!
Peter.

I know this is for Africa but my experience with a frontal shot occured on Monday 11/24 while hunting PA black bear. This was my first ever bear, #205 dressed. The shot was about 45 yds sharp uphill in a small opening in the laurel that Pa is so famous for.

The first shot hit directly between the front legs square in the chest, hearing my taxidermist brother's saying that black thread is cheap the second shot at a flopping black mass did nothing other than make a lot of noise. The bear was dead in no more than 15 seconds!!

The bullet was a 180gr TBBC from my Sako .300 Win Mag. This is my gun for Africa next June. The bullet came out just behind the ribs on the left side and all that was left of the heart and one lung was black jelly, no more meat damage than what an archery shot would have caused. Now I have faith in my new gun and am ready to go!!!

Jorge, I don't consider frontal chest shots to be at all unwise unless there is a question about the bullet's clear and unencumbered pathway into the chest area.

I've always found frontal chest shots to be exceptionally lethal if the shot is well-placed. I've personally used frontal chest shots on everything from mule deer, pronghorn, and elk to cape buffalo, leopard, and grizzly with excellent results. I just iron-out an excellent Texas whitetail buck with a frontal chest shot, and he folded as soon as the rifle went off.

The only factors that you really need to be sure of is that the animal's face doesn't get in the way of your bullet, and that you don't place the shot too low. I've heard story after story about cape buffalo that ran off and caused grief when shot low from the front and into the brisket, without hitting heart or lungs. Mac's 'V' aiming point is the spot to go for in my opinion.

You don't want to hit a lion in the face, either!

AD

[ 11-26-2003, 20:09: Message edited by: allen day ]